Milwaukee Electric Car Build

[tom.gralewicz]

I am sending e-mails directly to interested parties about the status and scheduling of the Milwaukee Electric car conversion.  I also plan to copy the e-mails here so club members can keep an eye on what I'm up to and offer suggestions and comments.


Tom Gralewicz's Electric Car Build Project

Welcome to the mailing list for Tom's electric car project, as with all lists if you want off or want to add someone, just let me know.

What is it:

   I am going to try to build an all electric car using mostly scrounged and surplus materials, I have had enough people express interest in helping build mine and learning how to build their own that I want to start an informal club.

When:
  The current plan is to get together the 1st and 3rd Sunday of each month from 10am to 2 pm.  The times are loose and some days we may work all day, if you can't make it early feel free to show up any time.

Where:
   To start with at Midwest Computer Recyclers at 1200 Davis Ave, in South Milwaukee, 53172, once I have a car to work on we will most likely move to my Oak Creek Warehouse.

What:
  This is an informal club, no dues, club business, etc.  I don't expect everyone to work, you are welcome to just show up and talk and watch.  My car is the kick off project, but part of the goal here is to help others build cars too.  I will try to send out e-mail reminders/status reports before each meeting like this:

Last Meeting:  None
    Status Report - I have batteries, AC motors, and two small AC drives.  Hopefully all the connectors and wire to setup some bench testing.  I am looking for a car and have narrowed the candidates to:  Chrysler PT Cruiser,  Chrysler/Plymouth Neon, or Ford Focus.  I can get an older Neon fairly easy, but hope to find one with a bad motor less than 10 years old cheap.


Next Meeting:  June 15th  - 10am till 2pm - 1200 Davis Ave South Milwaukee, WI  53172 - Midwest Computer Recyclers

    Goal:  Wire up the battery pack and power up a motor from battery power.       Talk about the project and get ideas and suggestions.
    Plan on a fast-food lunch break around noon.

     If you want to help wear work clothes, nothing here is super dirty but in the future meetings will involve dirty cars so keep that in mind.

[tom.gralewicz]

Status Report:

June 15th:  Tom, Tom, Tom, and Ken attended (its going to be fun keeping us straight)
                 We wired up the battery pack on a pallet - 18 batteries delivering 226V
                 Used a 3 phase industrial disconnect (one of those big switches you see on the wall in factories) as a main
                 power switch.

                The disconnect has some advantages:    3 independent fuses,  3 actual switches allow the pack to be
                divided into 4 sub packs - 48V, 48V, 48V, and 60V.
                Connected a 5HP 240V VFD to the pack and then to a 6.2HP motor.

                The motor ran fine, from the AC voltage out of the VFD it looks like more batteries are in order.  Info from
                a VFD expert supports this.  I need to get a peak voltage from the pack at least 1.414 * 240V = 340V - 26 batteries.

June 26th:   We have a car!   a 1999 Plymouth Neon ACR (4 door)
                  People keep asking me why this car so here is the logic that lead me here:
                  Phase 1:   The smallest, lightest car I can find - less weight means less power, smaller motor, etc.
                                 Looking at Geo Metro, Suzuki Swift, Ford Festiva, Honda Fit, Toyota Eco, etc.
                                     I lean toward American made card, more info available, ready made parts, etc.
                                 The batteries I have weight 54# each * 18 = 972 lb.  About 50% the curb weight of the original car.
                                 Finding out that I need 8 more batteries and conversion books pointing out that in addition to
                                 upgrading the suspension you should upgrade the brakes as well.

                  Phase 2:   Go from a sub-compact to a compact.  Find something less than 10 years old.
                                 When I started looking I ran across the ACR version of the Dodge/Plymouth Neon.  A version of the car
                                 built for amateur racing.  Performance engine, upgraded 4 wheel disk brakes, stiffer struts and sway bars,
                                 lower ratio differential, and minimum extras - no power windows, locks, etc.  The only down side is a lower
                                 ratio steering rack - not the best thing if I don't put a power steering pump in.  But it is cheaper and easier
                                 than upgrading the brakes and stripping out extras.

              I found a 1999 Neon ACR on Craig's list from a local Neon nut (there were 10 neons at his house when I went to look at the car.)  He also offered to help with parts and buying back the motor when I pull it out.  Thanks Barry.

Next Meeting:   Sunday July 6th, 10AM till 2pm or ?        Where:   1200 Davis Ave, South Milwaukee, WI 53172
                    What:        Wire up some motors and test the stall torque.
                                     Measure the car pre-conversion.
                                     Make battery mock ups so we can figure out how to fit 26 batteries in the car!

Everyone is welcome, call me if you have problems finding the warehouse (414) 380-1716

[tom.gralewicz]

Status:      Sunday July 6th:    Tom, Tom, Tom, Ken and Joe.

           We did some stall testing - clamp a motor to a table, bolt a 12" bar to the shaft, let the end of the bar rest on a small scale.
          Power up the motor and read some numbers.

          We tried 2 different motors on the single 5HP AC Drive  Results:

          Baldor 200V 6.2HP Motor    Stall current 35A  Stall torque 14.6 ft lb using 230V DC
                                                    Identical results using 283 V DC

         Baldor M2238  230V 10HP motor  Stall current 35A  Stall torque 9.9 ft lb  both voltages

        After consulting Gary L.  (a very helpful engineer and my new best friend :-) ) I appear limited by the AC Drive.  Its time to find a bigger drive.

        I have been playing around with the numbers for acceleration and wind resistance and have come up with the following rough estimates:
              To accelerate at 6 MPH per second I need a little under 23HP
              To cruise at 60mph on level ground I will need about 15HP
       Although it is possible to get these power levels out of the 6 and 10 hp motors I have I would be over driving the and loose efficiency by heating.
       My concern has been how to get high horse power from a light motor - the 10HP motor I have is almost 150lb!

       I have found a different style of motor  "Open Frame Drip Proof" that are significantly lighter than the Totally Enclosed motors I have been finding.  I have a possible source for a 30HP motor that weighs 280#\lb.  This is making more and more sense - the 20HP version of the same motor is only 40lb lighter so why not run the extra power?  Under driving the motor should help efficiency.


Plans:    I hope to get wheel by wheel weights Friday night - thanks Tom B.
             Gary L. may be able to get me a 30HP AC Drive, if not it is time to buy something.



Next Meeting:   Sunday July 20th, 10AM till 2pm or ?        Where:   1200 Davis Ave, South Milwaukee, WI 53172
                                       
 
       Measure the car pre-conversion.
       Make battery mock ups so we can figure out how to fit 26 batteries in the car!
       Start reverse engineering the dashboard - I would like to use the dashboard speedometer, Odometer and possibly tach and temp gauges if we can figure out how to read and create the signals from the speed sensors and to the dashboard.



Everyone is welcome, call me if you have problems finding the warehouse (414) 380-1716

[tom.gralewicz]

Status: July 20th Meeting -  Tom, Tom, Tom, and Royce

We measured the car - both from the top of the wheel wells and from alignment holes on the frame to get the ride height.

We started pulling the carpet and seats out of the back in preparation for batteries.
Royce cut a bunch of battery templates, these will be used to figure out the layout of the battery trays.

With an Oscilloscope, meter, and Haynes manual we figured out the electronic signals between the speed sensors, Engine control computer, and the dashboard.  I hope to use the existing vehicle speed sensor to monitor speed, the existing dash to display MPH, RPM, and possibly temperature and state of charge.

Since the meeting:

I have a 30HP Baldor AC Drive  Model ID16230-E0, Thanks Gary.  It is an older model - programming is done through register numbers, I am looking for the programming manual for this drive, I have literature request into Baldor so cross your fingers.
There will be some challenges in getting the AC Drive to work on battery power.  The internal circuitry and fans are powered by a AC transformer - we will need to determine the power supply ratings and replace them with DC-DC Converters and DC Fans.

I also have a 20HP motor Baldor M2515 - it currently bolted to an air compressor.   The plan is to use this combination to start with. 

I have been working on the battery pack monitor - a small circuit board that connects between the battery pack and the car.  It will display voltage and Amps in or out.  It will have an RS232 connection that a computer can read it remotely.  I plan to put one on the main pack and one on the 12V accessory system.  The circuit boards are done and the first one is mostly built and about 1/2 programmed.


Plans for the August 3rd meeting:

Reverse engineer the power system on the AC Drive - figure out what it needs for power.

Take more useless things out of the car :-)  the rear seat is held in by large torx screws, my T50 is too small so if someone has larger bits please bring them if not a quick run to the store and I'll pick one up.

Measure the transmission position and locations of the motor mounts.

Make cardboard templates for the battery trays.

As always everyone is welcome, come and help or just watch.

Where:   Midwest Computer Recyclers, 1200 Davis Ave, South Milwaukee, 53172
When:    10 am til 2pm Sunday

If you need directions call Tom at (414) 380-1716

[tom.gralewicz]

Status:

August 3rd:  Tom, Tom, Tom, Ben, Wyane, and Mike

Tom B. brought seat mounting brackets to move the driver's seat back in the Neon, they worked great and now I can actually get in and out of the car :-)

Ben brought the forklift motor he wants to use in his Swift.  Tom B brought a hipot tester and they did some checking on the motor, put it together and ran it on 12V.

The back of the Neon is cleaned out and ready for batteries.


Since the meeting:

I have a copy of the manual for the Baldor AC Drive and 2 new motors and drives.
A 15HP and 20HP Allen Bradley High Performance AC Servo motors with controllers.  The only problem with these is that they are 480V.  I plan on designing the motor mount to allow these or the original 20HP motor to be mounted.

I plan on looking at a junked Neon Sunday around 3pm not far from the warehouse as a possible donor for a transmission.

I have collected over 250 12V 7AH SLA batteries, not big enough for a car, but 2 banks with the 5HP motor and controller I have might make a good motorcycle project.  If anyone is interested let me know.


Plans for the August 3rd meeting:

Ben would like to work on his DC forklift motor, possibly replace the bearings and insulate the field coils.

I want to make some cardboard cutouts of the battery boxes and look at battery layouts.

There are 2 potential ways to get the Baldor AC Drive to run off battery, feed the AC portion with a small VFD or replace the power supply, fans, and contactor with DC equipment.

Come one come all, watch, talk, and participate!

1200 Davis Ave, South Milwaukee, WI  53172 
10AM to 2PM
Call Tom if you have any questions (414) 380-1716

[tom.gralewicz]

Status:

August 17th:
We heard some odd noises coming from Ben's Transmission and opened it
up enough to find a bad bearing.  Tom B. brought in some coil
insulating spray since Ben's motor was showing leakage to the chassis.

August 31st:
We met a Ben's house, he got a replacement transmission and got the
car put together.  The motor is hitting the frame and not sitting
right so the shift linkage can't be connected yet.  We did go for some
test drives in 2nd gear around the neighborhood with a test version of
my Amp/Volt monitoring board connected.  It looks like he cruises on
level ground at 20mph at about 150A.  We did see spikes up to almost
400A (the controller limit) during acceleration.  It Royce's and my
first time riding in an electric car - gota love it!


Plans:

I have the equipment to monitor the speedometer and tachometer sensors
to read actual values.
I still need to layout the battery boxes - I'm thinking of framing
them out of 1/2" foam, reinforcing them with aluminum and wrapping
them in fiberglass.
After much thought I am thinking of using 2 AC Drives in the car.  I
have a small one that will work off of DC.  I will use it to power the
transformer and fans in the main AC Drive and power an AC vacuum pump
for the power brakes.  This will be the easiest approach to get the
car running.


Come one come all, watch, talk, and participate!

1200 Davis Ave, South Milwaukee, WI  53172
10AM to 2PM
Call Tom if you have any questions (414) 380-1716

[tom.gralewicz]

Status:


September 7th:

A good turn out.

Tom B. brought his "to be converted Pickup" and got ride height measurements.
We connected the 20HP motor, 30HP AC Drive, and a throttle position
sensor  (TPS) off an unknown car to together and ran it on the bench.
We even ran the speed to over 4000 RPM (the motor is rated for 1780.)
The TPS doesn't go all the way to 0 ohms but once I adjusted the idle
stops it gets close, I expect to add a microswitch to the final
version to stop the motor.

I may have found my distributed chargers, I purchased one 12V 10A
smart charger.  It does a 3 phase charge:  Bulk, Top, and Maintain.
There are 2 pots inside the charger that should let you adjust the set
points.  Although the charger works on 120 or 240V you need to flip a
switch to make the change.

I can buy 30 of these for less than $32 each including shipping:
   http://cgi.ebay.com/12V-10A-Car-Lead-Acid-Battery-Intelligent-Sw-Charger_W0QQitemZ190248915231QQihZ009QQcategoryZ20589QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

So far the one I have has worked flawlessly.  They are isolated so I
can put one on each battery.  I am debating using these with a
microcontroller turning it on and off to balance line draw or buying
some standard power supplies and letting the microcontroller handle
charging as well.  Either way the plan is for the microcontroller  to
monitor current and voltage and report back watts in and battery
state.


Plans:

I have the equipment to monitor the speedometer and tachometer sensors
to read actual values.
I still need to layout the battery boxes - I'm thinking of framing
them out of 1/2" foam, re-enforceing them with aluminum and wrapping
them in fiberglass.
Modify the AC Drive to use the 2nd drive for power of the AC
components, then switch the hole setup over to battery power.

What ever other people want to work on.



Come one come all, watch, talk, and participate!

1200 Davis Ave, South Milwaukee, WI  53172
10AM to 2PM
Call Tom if you have any questions (414) 380-1716

[tom.gralewicz]

11 builders, 3 electric vehicles and a good time were all in attendance.

I am not very good at remembering names but will insert what I can:

One builder showed up on an electric bicycle and let others take it for a ride, it was the fastest electric vehicle around until...

Ben brought his electric motorcycle, a few builders helped track down a bad battery terminal and rewired it to run on 36V, then it was the new speed demon!

Swee brought his electric Trike - Front half ATV back half Motorcycle and worked on getting a thumb throttle working.

I bench tested my motor and AC controller on battery power for the first time and ran the motor no load with out problems.  It looks like I will be using a small AC drive to generate 240V AC to power the fans and control transformer in the larger drive.  All the AC drives I have seen use a resistor across a high current contactor to pre-charge the capacitors on board before switching full current to the drive.  I plan on letting the small AC drive charge the capacitors and let the contactor connect the high current battery feed to the the drive.
We also started making some cardboard templates for the battery boxes.  I am bouncing between a few different ideas:
   Form the battery boxes out of 1/2" rigid foam with metal straps to bolt it to the car and attach battery hold downs then fiberglass the whole unit.
   Make a bottom panel out of 3/4" plywood and use metal or wood strips to divide the cells.
   Or ?  I'm looking for suggestion or comments.

I will be out of town the next week so  Brian will be hosting the next meeting:


Next Meeting:  Sunday October 5th  - Not the alternate location!

Brian Mathis
12705 W Hickory Rd
New Berlin WI 53151
(414) 630-5305
 
Its just south of 124th and national. South on 124th about two blocks to Ohio, turn right (west) take first left (south) onto Hickory. Follow it around and through stop sign. I'm almost at the top of the hill on the left.
 
I'm going to work on battery boxes and supports for under the bed of the S10. Possibly install my battery charger, dc-dc converter, and if the motor shows up by then, install that.
 
I'll be glad to get dirty and help with anything anyone else has. I have a 120? amp welder, cutting tools, almost anything you could need. Except garage space, but I'll see what I can do...
 
Anyone can show up after 9:00 AM and continue till it gets dark or the fire dept shows.
 
Brian

--
Tom Gralewicz
Midwest Computer Recyclers
(414) 380-1716
www.deadcomputers.com

[tom.gralewicz]

Status 
 

Last Sunday, we had a total of 4 show, mostly to help me weld a battery box for the left kidney, and fabricate a box for the right side. We did some more measurements on (Tom's) Nissan, and had a little welding training for Mike. All of this while dodging the raindrops. Also a lot of EV discussion as usual.
 
I'll be picking up a Warp 9" on Saturday, and the first controller should show in a week or two. If it doesn't, I'll use the Kelly 500 amp, see if its worth anything...
 


Next Meeting  Sunday October 19th

Once again I will be unavailable to host so Brian has offered to meet at his house and work on his S10


Brian Mathis
12705 W Hickory Rd
New Berlin WI 53151
(414) 630-5305

Its just south of 124th and national. South on 124th about two blocks
to Ohio, turn right (west) take first left (south) onto Hickory.
Follow it around and through stop sign. I'm almost at the top of the
hill on the left.
 
I have several things to do...
 
Weld aluminum boxes for rear side batteries
Weld a rear battery box frame
Fix the clutch
Test motor and tranny with 12V
Start wiring S10
Install vacuum pump
Install battery charger
Install dc/dc converter
Make 2/0 cables
 
I should have some items done before Sunday, but there's always something to do! I can help with anyone's project. It looks like a mostly sunny low 60's day. I have 220 in the garage now and a 180 amp welder aluminum capable. I also have made more room, in case it rains again.

 Everyone else is welcome to come over, help out, work on their own projects, or just enjoy the show.

C
Brian Mathis
MSGT USAF (RET)
http://www.evalbum.com/1752

[tom.gralewicz]

Status:

October 19th meeting:
 
We had another productive day. Had a Citicar parked in the driveway, worked on another Citicar charger, and after setting all my batteries out to a full 180V pack, made numerous 2/0 cables, put up a DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE sign, mostly to remind me to wear gloves, set the Manzanita charger to complete a full charge (used .5 KWH). Also set up and verified operation of the Pak-Traker (only 3 remotes, so only 144V worth of monitoring).
 
Also, I don't know if anyone is good at making a web site, but I was thinking we could start a simple page, updating what we have going on, with contact info so anyone in the area could find us.

Ben and I spent Tuesday evening shooting video of me making my adapter plate to mount the motor to the transmission.  Ben would like to make more of these short videos about different parts of the conversion process.


Next Meeting:   November 2nd  South Milwaukee Warehouse

I hope to have the adapter plate done and the motor connected to the transmission - if so I want to do a full bench test of the modified drive, motor and Transmission.
I still need to work on my battery packs.  I am also about ready to start measuring and modifying the engine compartment.

If other people want to bring specific projects to work on and want help, e-mail me details and I'll send them to the group.



Come one come all, watch, talk, and participate!

1200 Davis Ave, South Milwaukee, WI  53172
10AM to 2PM
Call Tom if you have any questions (414) 380-1716

[tom.gralewicz]

Status:

November 2nd meeting:

We had a great turnout and got some real work done:

Battery frames and hold downs were built for Ben's Geo Metro
Tom G's drive train:  Batteries, Controllers, Motor and Transmission were connected and tested to speed!
Construction work on Tom B's prototype motor controller



Next Meeting:   November 28-29th  Tom G's House (see address below)

Sorry for the late notice on this, I had been unable to figure out the best place to pull the motor until today.

I don't expect this to be an all hands type of meeting, but anyone who wants to stop in is welcome.

I plan to spend Friday and Saturday from about 10am til 4pm pulling the motor from the Neon and fitting the new one.
Time permitting we can start mounting controllers and wiring it up.

I don't think there will be much room for a 2nd car this time, but in the future we should be able to work on 2 cars indoors.


Come one come all, watch, talk, and participate!

6630 W. Coldspring Rd.   Greenfield, WI  53220
Plenty of on-street parking
10AM to 4PM
Call Tom if you have any questions (414) 380-1716

[tom.gralewicz]

status:

November 29th meeting:

We had a great turnout and got some real work done:

Battery frames and hold downs were built for Ben's Geo Metro
Tom G's drive train:  Batteries, Controllers, Motor and Transmission
were connected and tested to speed!
Construction work on Tom B's prototype motor controller



Next Meeting:   December 7th 10am till 2pm  Tom G's House (see address below)

Back to the usual days (1st and 3rd Sunday)

Status:

The Thanksgiving build made great progress.  We had 5 builders, given
the late notice and unscheduled days I was thrilled with the turnout.
The gas components of the Dodge Neon are all out.  Rich and Brian got
the manual steering rack installed with new tie rod ends.
Rich used his bearing kit to replace both front bearings - we finished
that yesterday,  thanks Rich!

A test fit of the transmission and motor plate looks good, and we
finalized the motor mount locations.  Some fabrication this week and I
hope to have the mount ready this weekend.

Dennis, a friend from Dallas was in town working on the electronic
dashboard got the first screen working and talking to the battery
monitor and temperature sensors.


Next Meeting:   Sunday December 7th at the address below from 10am to 2 pm.

Its a new location, a little smaller but we should have enough room to
work on the neon and 1 other car indoors.  Most tools should be
available including a lathe, small mill/drill,  band saw and welder.

The plan is to get the final fit on the motor, transmission and
mounting plate, then take them out one last time for sanding and
painting.
The next 2 major projects on the Neon are the motor controller
mounting and battery trays.

Feel free to bring your projects, if you want specific help send a
message to the mailing list or drop me a line and I'll send it out.


Come one come all, watch, talk, and participate!

Tom Gralewicz
6630 W. Coldspring Rd.   Greenfield, WI  53220
Plenty of on-street parking
10AM to 2PM
Call Tom if you have any questions (414) 380-1716

[todd.dore]

Tom -

Thanks for the update.  I can't make this Sunday, but I should be able to come up in a couple of weeks.  I'm interested in your garage setup.  By the way are you close to finishing any conversions yet?  It sounds like you are - and progress is going well.

Do you guys have 3 projects going on now?  If so, good job!

-Todd Dore

[tom.gralewicz]

Status:

December 7th meeting:

We had a great turnout and got some real work done:

We worked on two projects:
The new coupler for Ben's Geo Metro, we had a critical mass of brain
power and after running through a few senareos worked out a good
solution then started putting it together.  The next weekend a few
builders helped Ben put it in and got his car back on the road!

Put most of the finishing touches on Toms Neon motor mount, a few more
holes and some paint and we can bolt it all together!



Next Meeting:   Sunday December 21th 10am till 2pm  Tom G's House (see
address below)

We have plenty of tools and resources at the new location and enough
room to work on 2 cars indoors at the same time.  Feel free to bring
your project and get some help building!

Ben is complaining about the cold so there should be some ideas and
possibly tinkering with solutions.

Toms Neon needs a little finish work on the motor mount and I hope to
have the parts cut and bent for the battery boxes.  It will be time to
do some welding, bolting, painting, and gluing to get them ready for
the car.

If you want to bring a project to work on or hold a meeting at your
work shop, drop me an e-mail or just post to the above list!

Come one come all, watch, talk, and participate!

Tom Gralewicz
6630 W. Coldspring Rd.   Greenfield, WI  53220
Plenty of on-street parking
10AM to 2PM
Call Tom if you have any questions (414) 380-1716

[tom.gralewicz]

Status:

December 21st meeting:

We had a great turnout and got some real work done:

Work is progressing on the motor mount for the neon, finished final fitting and its time for a coat of paint.
(since then I discovered I had a motor mount in upside down and had to remake the right bracket of the motor mount, its now painted and installed)

Ben got his pot box installed in a box, neatened up some other under hood wiring and we went for a ride around the block!  Its sounding great.


Next Meeting:   Sunday January 4th 10am till 2pm  Tom G's House (see address below)

I plan to work on building and mounting the battery trays for the Neon.  I have the steel cut and bent and will be welding hold down bolts an dividers in place. 
I need to figure out how to bolt the trays to the floor in the car, I hope to make use of the seat and seat belt mounting bolts.
The engine compartment needs a few pieces:  mount the throttle body, wire the sensors, and find a path for the wiring to the motor controller.

Any other projects people want to bring?


If you want to bring a project to work on or hold a meeting at your
work shop, drop me an e-mail or just post to the above list!

Come one come all, watch, talk, and participate!