FVEAA Forums
EV Technology Development => Battery Chargers => Topic started by: ted.lowe on January 10, 2011, 08:15:48 PM
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When i called Avcon Corp. aka Meltric Corp. (in Franklin, WI) today to get receipts for previously purchased Avcon Powerpaks, i noticed 'SAE 1772' on their website. i asked our contact there, Jodi, whether they are still selling Avcons (given the recent explosion of new charge points and the new SAE 1772-2010 standard). i was surprised to hear that they still do sell one "rarely". To her knowledge, they have no plans to sell an Avcon with the latest 1772 standard plug (nor have they been approached to do so).
This ties into the question that Rich Carroll has brought up an meetings about what to do with the existing Avcon stations, 4 which FVEAA (via Todd Martin's Charging Infrastructure program) has installed (Northbrook, Aurora, Elgin and Beverly-Chicago). The modern chargepoints (like Columb Tech, etc.) are very nice, full featured and EXPENSIVE when compared to the Avcon. A chargepoint doesn't have to be that fancy to provide a charge-point.
i think we should make the Avcon upgrades a mini-FVEAA project and learn the cheapest/best way to convert them to the latest 1772 standard. Since there are so few Avcon stations in IL and since there are so many 1772-based chargers coming, it makes sense for all members currently using Avcon to convert their EVs to 1772 (or build/carry a 1772->Avcon adapter).
Ur thoughts???
Btw, i'm guessing that the Avcon wand is actually a SAE 1772 standard based on Avcon's legacy website:
(http://www.fveaa.org/fb/avcon-webpage_269.jpg)
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Interesting thought - I don't know of anyone actually using the AVCON stations currently. However, it would be ideal if we could convert to the 2010 standard.
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We compared the AVCON charger insides to the J1772 charger insides at the shop. We used an ESI 'talking charger' and a Clipper Creek unit. The reason we did is that the cases looked exactly the same on the outside.
Inside they were totally different. Even the button placement on the front panel was different. However, we did notice that whereever an ESI AVCON unit was installed, it would be very simple to unbolt the case and mount the Clipper Creek unit. The back of the case, the mounting holes, the post or wall mount was EXACTLY the same.
I believe there is enough logic different in the J1772-2002 (AVCON) and the J1772-2009 standards, that a new circuit board is needed.
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Interesting Rich... i just read about the Clipper Creek unit you mentioned.
i see the Avcon as the most basic (yet safe) model and the newer charge points as more full-featured models. The bells and whistles are cool but pricey (so far). Sometimes i just want some V*I :-)
One important modern feature that Avcon is lacking is the lock to prevent cable theft (which i believe is the biggest problem with the Avcons historically - ie, copper thieves). It wouldn't be too hard create a smart card activated enclosure (approx. $50 of parts), but i suspect that the powerpaks wouldn't have enough internal space to hold a rolled up 25' cable.
When time permits, i'll work with any FVEAAers that want to make a proof of concept circuit that will convert the avcon to j1772-2010.
The wikipedia entry on j1772 is good (and even mentions the Avcon:-):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772)
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I am very interested in this project. I believe we should upgrade the 4 AVCON stations we donated to be compliant with J1772-2010. If we could just replace the outlet instead of the whole device, it would save the FVEAA quite a bit of money.
Personally, I currently use the Elgin AVCON station and would like to upgrade my Force to include a J1772-2010 inlet. Joe may still use the Aurora train station AVCON.
I understand Rich's view that the circuit boards are different between AVCON and Clipper Creek. However, they don't need to be identical. We just need the J1772-2010 inlet to be recognized by an AVCON circuit box. I think the handshake protocols may already be the same. Since we have 2 spare AVCON units as well as the 4 installed units plus the Packer unit (7 total), I think it is certainly worth the effort. I suggest we try putting a J1772-2010 plug on one of our spare AVCONS and seeing what happens.
Ted, I'll be happy to help with the project.
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Todd -
Can you please snap a picture of the Elgin charging station and send it to Todd Dore. He needs one to submit, and it will save me a drive all the way to Elgin to take a picture.
Thanks
Rich
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Hi Rich,
Yes, I will photograph the Elgin AVCON and send it to Todd Dore.
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The circuit board comment would refer to a modern item with lots of features. The Avcon->1772-2010 would be just a few components (diodes, resistors). Both standards use a pilot wire to signal the charge point to turn on the power, but i don't think the protocols are exact. Not rocket science, but a small analog circuit to make both sides happy. Ken Simmermon's detailed knowledge of the Avcon side will be very important and Todd D sent me some email a while back with the 1772 details. i suspect the circuit will be simple but complex enough to warrant a small PCB to securely hold the components. Converting one of our spare Avcons (#5 or #6) first is exact-a-tackily what i was thinking too...
i figured you Todd M would be one of the more interested folks :-) As you may expect... i'm still in the dinosaur age, so i guess i'll need to make a 240vac to 1772 adapter for my longer road trips. Weeee... rocketing into the 20th (sic) century :-)
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I am very interested in this project. I believe we should upgrade the 4 AVCON stations we donated to be compliant with J1772-2010. If we could just replace the outlet instead of the whole device, it would save the FVEAA quite a bit of money.
Personally, I currently use the Elgin AVCON station and would like to upgrade my Force to include a J1772-2010 inlet. Joe may still use the Aurora train station AVCON.
I understand Rich's view that the circuit boards are different between AVCON and Clipper Creek. However, they don't need to be identical. We just need the J1772-2010 inlet to be recognized by an AVCON circuit box. I think the handshake protocols may already be the same. Since we have 2 spare AVCON units as well as the 4 installed units plus the Packer unit (7 total), I think it is certainly worth the effort. I suggest we try putting a J1772-2010 plug on one of our spare AVCONS and seeing what happens.
Ted, I'll be happy to help with the project.
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Here are the docs Todd D sent me in Oct. 2010:
http://www.fveaa.org/fb/j1772description%5B1%5D_272.pdf (http://www.fveaa.org/fb/j1772description%5B1%5D_272.pdf)
http://www.fveaa.org/fb/FCI_Power-S3-SAE-J1772-Charge-plug-2010-06_276.pdf (http://www.fveaa.org/fb/FCI_Power-S3-SAE-J1772-Charge-plug-2010-06_276.pdf)
The 1st has the most important technical detail for the Avcon->j1772-2010 adapter project and the 2nd one is good for background info.
A couple of inline images from the 1st doc fyc:
(http://www.fveaa.org/fb/sae-j1772-el-config_274.jpg)
(http://www.fveaa.org/fb/j1772-interface_275.jpg)
Ok... back to paying work now :-)
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I Agree it would be nice to upgrade the Avcon units, I will study the schematics and see what's possible. Just worried about the Liability of the modification. I'm sure someone in the ranger group has already done this as they were one or two years ahead of us building interfaces for the Avcon.
Ken
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FYI, for the 1st document, I tried to do an adaptor and it did not work. Rich and I pulled it apart, and did not see anything wrong with the configuration or the contacts. At least for the inlet that would go into the car - everything to the left of the schematic. We didn't attempt anything to the right as this would be done in the chargepoint, but presumably that's what we would have to tackle for an AVCON adaptor.
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snip
Just worried about the Liability of the modification. I'm sure someone in the ranger group has already done
snip
Ken
Yes, the UL rating will be defunct after our mods. i think the liability issue hasn't even begun to be an issue (haven't read about any car fires or electrocutions yet). We need to make sure the safety functions are rock solid after our mods and should discuss the issue with the owners of the 4 FVEAA installed Avcons.
Thanks Ken!
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I think the handshake protocols may already be the same.
Bingo, you're right on Todd!
See the first post (by randycarter2001) here:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5241-Old-Avcon-to-J1772-adapter/page2&s=6994474da8eb1f6809811836bbc293f3
(http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5241-Old-Avcon-to-J1772-adapter/page2&s=6994474da8eb1f6809811836bbc293f3)
>It's not as bad as you think. The pilot control signal from the Avcon box is the same for the new J1772, up to about 50 amps.
>You can actually cut the Avcon plug off the end of the wire and put on the new Yazaki plug and have it work with both old and new cars.
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Thanks Ted for finding that link. The discussion had a link which sells the new J1772-2009 plug with 20' cable as well as a J1772-2009 inlet for $262 (30 Amp 240V version).
From the discussion, the plug may be all that is needed to convert an old AVCON station into a new J1772-2009 station. I propose that the FVEAA purchase one of these $262 plug & inlet combos for testing. If successful, we could convert an old AVCON for use at Packer or another location.
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You can find the plug alone for $170 plus shipping. With 26 feet of cord $250 plus shipping. You likely don't need $80 extra for the cord, just for testing. See: http://tucsonev.com/ (http://tucsonev.com/)
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Thanks Rich! Nobody sells the plug for less than $170? Ouch... that sounds like all we need though. The Avcon cable should have the same 5 wires (2 hots, 1 ground, 2 signal), yes ?
Would Todd Dore (or someone else) be willing to test our converted Avcon with his 1772 hookup ? thanks!
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Thanks Ted good info. Maybe the club should also purchase an adapter like Todd Dore has.
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I certainly would be willing to test - so Ted are you talking about a conversion that we could do? Or one that we will do?
Thanks -
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I have an extra AVCON inlet, and at least one extra AVCON charger. I would be happy to lend them to the project. I also use an AVCON inlet in my truck, and we know that works, so we could test fairly easily.
Rich
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Unless somebody can find a source for a j1772-2010 plug cheaper than $170, this sounds like the cost of an Avcon Powerpak conversion to j1772 output. We'll need someone (like Todd D or ?) with a working j1772 inlet installed to test the converted unit. If we order the plug soon, we should be able to test/demo at the Feb. meeting.
Also, since the conversion is really just replacing the Avcon paddle (j1772-2002) with a j1772-2010 plug, i think the liability issue is moot (ok, maybe not officially UL approved, but as safe as the original Avcon anyway).
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I have an AVCON inlet as well - last time I checked - but that has been a while!