FVEAA Forums
EV Technology => Batteries => Topic started by: robert.wood on July 11, 2008, 08:50:57 PM
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Can anyone help me find batteries other than Lead Acid?
Are Saft STM5-180 batteries still for sale? How about other NiCd? Any NiMH?
How about Lithium batteries? Does anyone sell a decent lithuim pack for an EV, one that I can actually get this year? Valence Tech said you had to PO at least $500,000 and wait until next year. A123 won't sell me a pack unless I have a Prius and then drive to Boston for installation.
I really don't want to dis-assemble 50+ DeWalt power tool battery then figure that whole mess out.
Thanks, Bob
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I will be attempting to use NiMH in a project sometime this year, this concept is not very attractive to many, because the battery packs have to be build, it basically depend on the level of effort and risk that you are willing to take. It will be interesting to start exchanging ideas of using NiMH and establish a base of knowledge in this option.
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I'm most interested in the new Altairnano titanate batteries. :o
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There are a few distributors of the Thunder Sky Li-ion batteries here in the US. Contact member Terry Kane for some info.
Supposedly they are selling better quality stuff, and will sell to individuals. Pricey, though - about $13-$20k for a decent pack for an EV.
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I am researching overseas options for NiMH as well as these are what I wish to put into my car and the conversions we will be doing down the road for years to come. I'm also going to be hiring a patent attorney to look over the Chevron owned patents and see if there is some way to start making these in the states as well. I simple love the lifespan on NiHM and price wise, they appear to be the best return on investment in respect to cost.
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I too have been looking at more than lead batteries, and sending inquiries to other companies. Most simply ignore you, or if they respond, they indicate that they are only interested in the OEM market, and are foregoing the consumer market. Nilar was the exception. They responsed that they anticipate having something for the consumer market in the October timeframe. Here is their web site: http://www.nilar.com/
Time will tell.
Larry
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What about making our own packs? I was talking to a guy who does conversions and he indicated he makes his own LiON packs from A123 spiral wound batteries. He recommended 100VDC as sufficient instead of the 144 I was asking about because of the reduced weight of the pack and less number of batteries in series. For round numbers, he figures 3 to $4k for such a pack, which if it is true, sign me up! I forget the energy stored, but in talking he figured it should get ~100 miles in my rx7 with 9" dc motor and 500 amp controller.
I am just starting to research LiON, but the price above seems to be really low considering the A123 pack for the prius is 10k. Is the prius pack something special? Maybe the prius pack uses the batteries that are not supposed to catch fire when crushed, and the others quoted above are the basic kind? I have also experienced the "not for you, you non FORD/GM type, thanks and call back in two years".
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I just received a reply from everspring (thunder sky) about their
We do not sell battery packs. Our patented lithion ion batteries are high capacity cells ranging from 40Ah to 800Ah.
Lithium ion batteries have a max of 4V. Our batteries are rated at 3.2V. For 144V you would need 45 units connected in serial.
You can find our technical information and pricing on our website (shipment and insurance not included - ex-factory Shenzhen, China):
http://www.everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm
We also offer volume pricing discount. Details can be found:
http://www.everspring.net/txt/discount.htm
Feel free to contact me if you need further details or assistance
Best regards,
Peter. peter-lee -at- everspring dot net
so a 144v 90Ah pack is ~$8.1k + shipping + charger. or ~$5.6k for a 100v pack. 1/3 the weight of PbA, and 1000 cycles. (I thought they were supposed to be more). This is bit more than I am ready to pay, but maybe it helps someone else out. Also, I am not sure if these are even appropriate. I am just learning.
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Hey Nathan,
Thanks for the info on Thunder Sky batteries.
3.2v @ 90 Ah x 32 batteries = 9.2 kw
3kg x 2.20462 x 32 batteries = 221 lbs
41 watts per lb
Sounds possible!
Here is what I've heard from other companies:
Altairnano no reply (no)
EnerDel sent email yesterday, requested to be a beta tester
Cobasys get lost (no)
Johnson Controls Did you say you were with Chevy? click.... (no)
A123 We don't ship batteries to just anyone!!! (no)
SaftAmerica Found product specs, waiting to here where to buy. I think I'm now an aircraft repair shop with 20 planes to over haul.
Valence requires a $500,000 PO and shipping next year!
I think there were more but my brain is at 90% DoD.
Bob
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The July FVEAA meeting was extremely informative. Jerry Jackson's presentation about the state of battery technology was excellent, providing great insight into current battery technology and current road blocks.
The presentation included a photo of a laptop computer lithium battery fire. I would like to have also know if these fires have been caused by faulty manufacturing.
The presenation got me to thinging about fire risk on lithium batteries vs gas automobile fires. I found this article about auto fires in 2008:
"In 2005 alone, there were more than 266,000 car fires reported to various agencies across the country. In these accidents, 520 people died as a result of the fire. Automobile fires are one of the more common causes of fire-related property damage. In fact, there is one motor-vehicle fire roughly every minute and a half in the United States alone.
Cars have a tendency to ignite as there are so many things that are flammable. For starters, gasoline and oil are exceptionally flammable and are known to ignite. Upholstery and other solid combustibles are commonly the start of a fire as well. The detonators in air bags, electrical short circuits, and a hot exhaust system can all be sources of ignition." Joseph Devine
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Joseph_Devine
Wikipedia claims: The United States is home to the largest passenger vehicle market of any country,[1] which is a consequence of the fact that it has the largest Gross Domestic Product of any country in the world.[2] Overall, there were an estimated 250,851,833 registered passenger vehicles in the United States according to a 2006 DOT study.[3]
That makes ~ 1 of every 1,000 cars catch fires each year.
Lithium battery fires are great attention grabbers, so they make for good news stories. I'm having a real problem putting my hands on real numbers. I know one company alone makes 50 million lithium batteries a year, so they must have 250 million on the market. How many lithium batteries are being used in the US today, billions to be sure. How many have caught on fire, hundreds... many are caused by cheap knock off companies after a quick buck.
Argonne National Labs says that Lithium Titanate batteries have excellent safety and perfomance while being an inexpensive technology:
www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/HV/461.pdf
EnerDel and Atairnano both make Lithium Titanate batteries today! EnerDel claims they will make there packs available in 2010 model year cars for around $1,500. Sign me up to beta test right now.
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news9.28a.html
We need to find a way to make this technology available to our club. Our personal tax dollars support building this technology, why can't we use it!!!!!
Bob
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Bob,
Thanks for the complement. I read with interest your latest message, and would like to take the opportunity to comment a couple of the points you made.
First, on the scale of fuels and energy sources availble to humanity, gasoline is remarkably inflammable and almost never explosive. This will not be true if we ever move into a hydrogen economy!
Second, the flaming of lithium-ion batteries currently available on the market is not a statistical phenomenon nor a result of manufacturing defects ... as I showed last night, there is a very real thermal instability in this class of chemistry. It is true that some forms of lithium ion chemistry have reduced this effect, such as lithium phosphate and tungstate, but those chemistries have much lower energy density (at least so far). If you pull to much current out of a lithium ion battery, or charge it too fast, it WILL flame each and every time.
Third, in talking with EV oldtimers and reading the other forums, smoking cables and vaporizing battery leads is much more than a 1:1000 occurrence.
Fourth, I read with interest your link to EnerDel. If you read the press release very carefully, you will not see any data on production rates or volume estimates. In comparing this release with the information presented at the battery summit, I will bet a box of donuts that they have only produced bench-top tungstate batteries, and have not yet started a production line. Note the word "hope" in the document. That leads me to believe that they will produce these batteries if they find an investor who will fund the startup costs. As I am sure you know, there is a BIG difference between a proof-of-principle prototype and units coming off a production line.
I wholeheartedly endorse your desire to get signed up for the beta-test models. If the Tesla Roadster is any indication though, I would not pay money up front unless they agree to pay you the interest. They may be holding your money long enough for that interest to add up!
Keep charging forward :)
Gerry Jackson
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Jerry, thanks for the additional feedback. Sounds like there are issues to resolve. Maybe we can talk sometime.
Today I talked to Terry Copeland the CEO of Altairnano. He hooked be up with a guy who actually discussed the batteries, cost and availability. They will sell us batteries.
Altair has two cells available for purchase:
11 ah, 2.3 nominal volts - on the shelf.
samples = $100
1,000 batteries @ $60-70 each (estimated)
50 ah, 2.3 nominal volts - samples available, larger orders 8 week lead time
samples = $250
1,000 batteries @ $210-230 each (estimated)
I've inquired into the possibility of a large group order in the $1 per watt range. I'll let you know what they say. Altair did sell a large stationary battery pack for grid storage at $1 per watt, which has been delivered.
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Jerry,
If I buy a 50ah, 2.3 volt Altairnano battery sample, can you help be create a load test exploring thermal runaway? Would a 30 minute discharge be sufficent to test flamability?
Thanks, Bob
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group buy-in through an already existing business and or corporation can get this done, and I am aggressively working on it.
Tim Maxwell
Sound Performance
We need to find a way to make this technology available to our club. Our personal tax dollars support building this technology, why can't we use it!!!!!
Bob
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Bob,
Great job shaking down the info on Altair. If the batts are as good as their web site says, this could be a great alternative. Is there a specifications sheets available? Keep us in the loop as you learn more.
Thanks again,
Larry
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Bob,
Since Altairnano was at the battery summit I attended, I have some of their literature. Most of the data was for their 11 AH cell. They seem to be confident that their batteries will operate at 10C pretty much indefinitely, which corresponds to 500 Amps for 6 minutes for their 50 AH cell. At a nominal cell voltage of 2.3 V, this corresponds to a peak power of 1.15 kW/cell. Let us say that your electric car has a 144 V input-voltage controller. This means you need 63 cells to generate this input voltage. At $210/cell, you are spending $13,000 for 7.2 kWh of stored energy. I would think that you need at least double this range, so now we are talking about $26,000. When you include cables, connectors, diagnostics, etc... you are talking $30,000 for a little better than 1/4 the range of the Tesla Roadster. The lithium titanate batteries are certainly safer, but are quoted to be lower capacity and higher cost ... the above calculation seems to bear out those quotes.
To answer your question, I can certainly set up a test stand for lithium-ion batteries to test their performance limits. The discharge would be on the order of 6 minutes to simulate peak discharge current requested by a typical motor controller.
Thanks for the interesting discussions.
Gerry
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Jerry,
Has the Power Point presentation from the last meeting been posted anywhere yet. It was a excellent one and so I am intested in having it as a reference.
Thanks
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The Altair guys have not sent a spec sheet on the cells. Do you have dimensions and weight of the cells?
Thanks, Bob
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Ted,
During our last EV club meeting, you mentioned you could get Valence Lithium Batteries. Would you please post specs and prices regarding the battery cells.
I did end up getting a quote for Saft America for large Ni-Cd batteries, but have come to the conclusion that they are not reliable, are high cost and have low life cycle. Saft will not sell me Ni-MH or Li-ION.
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Bob,
Sorry, but they do not have any practical data in their talk, like dimensions and weight.
Gerry Jackson
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The Altair guys have not sent a spec sheet on the cells. Do you have dimensions and weight of the cells?
Thanks, Bob
Bob,
Make one up. ;D
I do believe they are still open to possible suggestions because they haven't finnished their product for the market yet.
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EnerDel battery packs.
I had previously reported that I was waiting on a reply from EnerDel regarding specs and prices.
As a follow-up I emailed Ulrik Grape, the EnerDel CEO I did get a repsonse from the EnerDel Business Development Manager.
"Our company strategic focus is to become a leading developer and manufacturer of advanced, safe, high-performance, high-volume, Li-ion power systems for the automotive market and for related markets such as mass transportation, trucking, industrial and the military. We do not plan to sell batteries for the aftermarket, retro-fitters, or direct to the consumer at this time."
EnerDel packs are to be manufactured in Indiana.
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Hi Bob, et al,
Ted,
During our last EV club meeting, you mentioned you could get Valence Lithium Batteries. Would you please post specs and prices regarding the battery cells.
First a quick mention of their technology... Their new Epoch looks awesome! You can build packs in various series and parallel arrangements (to get your desired voltage and amperage) but only use ONE battery management system (BMS @ approx. $450). The real clever part of the Epoch is modeling the battery pack as a network for management purposes! Compare their approach to Thundersky :-)
Valence Technology website: http://www.valence.com/ (http://www.valence.com/)
Onto getting them... if you bought them at full price, expect to pay the REALLY HIGH price that all other Lithium batteries cost ($25-30k). The idea is to try to become a promotional / technology-proving partner with them and get a 'trial' pack for much cheaper. In early April, i called their Inside/Sales Manager Terri Wilson. We discussed their Epoch product line and our "hankering" to build our EVs with them. i mentioned to her that the FVEAA is a large, experienced group of EVers living in the 3rd largest market area in the US, TV and newspaper coverage ... yada yada yada... She sent me back some detailed pricing in email, the product PDF and a Customer System Specification (CSS) form. i've uploaded a ZIP file with all three items here:
http://www.fveaa.org/fb/valance-batteries_211.zip (http://www.fveaa.org/fb/valance-batteries_211.zip).
What you/we/somebody needs to do is write up an attractive CSS (really focusing on how much the FVEAA can help them market their products) and submit it back to her. She will review it and get it to a regional team that will evaluate it.
i think we have a pretty good chance to get a substantially reduced price in exchange for our energetic marketing of their Epoch line in the Chicago area. All the TV, radio and newspaper coverage we've gotten in the last couple of years and the high interest the $4+/gallon gasoline prices have created show that we are the right people in the right place at the right time! Who wants to run with this idea? i'll volunteer to work with whomever does, but not "own" the task. Thanks!
ps. She said that with increased volume, you can expect the costs to drop sharply (and i asked when that might be, and she guessed within the year)! We can help this happen!!!
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I volunteer to write a CSS for my conversion project. If you can guide me, I'll handle the leg work.
I was planning a 90's GEO (curb weight 1,800) conversion, but maybe I should switch back to the Miata (curb weight 2,200) if I can get the Valence Batteries.
Thanks for the info.
Bob
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Bob and Ted,
I will assist on the development of the CSS as well. A word of caution - I am an engineer so my marketing skill may not be up to par, but I will try to compensate with passion.
Larry
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I'm also interested. I may write up the eREV project to see if that will stir up some interest. Did anyone do the math on that pricing and figure out how much a 25-30KW pack would run? I'll look up those part numbers and figure it out tomorrow if no one else has. If we have multiple folks here interested, perhaps we can purchase a few packs, depending on price. I know I can't afford much but would be willing to invest a bit if it's a significant discount.
Matt
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These batteries look pretty neat, I will admit. The cost is US $1.60/Watt-hour. TS Batteries are about 1/2 that price. Of course, with the CSS, the idea is to get a pack of them at a major discount so that Valence can use our 'test pack' for potential marketing purposes. It might be worth a try. Expecially since I don't think there was too enthusiastic a response from Valence from another members' attempts at getting exotic batteries (but I could be confusing the manufactuerer).
The fact is I cannot recall any conversion EVer in the US that has done a conversion for a highway-legal EV that uses any Valence batteries, but there's nothing wrong with being the 1st!
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It seems like Lithium Phosphate or Titanate batteries are the answer.
1) High safety - no thermal run away
2) Sealed - no Hydrogen leak unless excessive overcharge occurs
3) 1/2 the weight of lead-acid (or better)
4) 2000 cycles at 100% capacity, over 15,000 cycles with 80-85% capacity
5) 100ah has compariable usagable energy storage to 240ah lead acid
6) No battery damage during 100% DOD
7) Better performance at low temperture
Lithium Phosphate batteries may well exceed the life of the vehicle.
I've emailed the Thundry Sky distributor asking about their chemisty, but have no answer. My understanding is that they are Lithium Cobalt, which would be both dangerous and toxic. I heard they may have batteries with LiFePO4??? Additionally, an internet search inidicates that TS has a 20% rate of Dead on Arrival, with no replacements offered. These batteries are made in China to avoid US Patients. I've also heard many Chinese battery manfactures use interior chemisty components which could effect quality, energy storage and cell life.
I've completed a Valence CSS and sent it to Ted and Larry for review.
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Thanks Bob!
I volunteer to write a CSS for my conversion project. If you can guide me, I'll handle the leg work.
i reviewed the draft CSS you emailed me. i uploaded here for others to read too:
http://www.fveaa.org/fb/Valence_Customer_System_Specification_Level_1_rev2.15_212.doc (http://www.fveaa.org/fb/Valence_Customer_System_Specification_Level_1_rev2.15_212.doc)
Here's my feedback FWIW (from trivial to important):
- since you used the FVEAA as a company, list our size as 100+ employees.
- The FVEAA has been around since 1975 and is one of the largest and most active of the National EAA's 50 some chapters.
The most substantive effort on this project is to get our ducks in a row before contacting Valence to present the most organized and well-thought-out proposal to them so we have the best chance of getting a successful outcome.
Please don't submit the CSS (at least using the FVEAA name) until we have discussed various approaches.
The approach i prefer is to make your conversion an official "FVEAA club car" project (we provide labor and you provide opportunity for members to learn/practice skills).
Last year you know we did the Porsche 944 which was a very good match for the FVEAA because Eric funded the conversion, provided the garage space and it was a "cool" car to convert. I was the primary Project Lead and organized the weekly sessions and did much "out of session" research and follow-up. It was very time consuming for me (6+ months of Saturday mornings, etc.), but very rewarding (from many angles: technical, social, professional). i'd say the project went extremely well all things considered.
Onto the possibility of your car being an official "club car" project:
- Do you want this ?
- Are you willing and able to be the Project Leader ?
- When do you plan to start ?
- What car do you plan to convert?
- What are your requirements for seating, speed and range? What are your planned usages for your EV?
- What does your garage availabilty look like?
- Are you financially set to fund the project (Valence batteries excluded)?
One question i have is you've only spec'ed out a 100ah pack, which is about 1/2 of what i would expect.
THANKS!
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I am not interested in doing a club car project as you have described, because I'd like to complete my project within a couple of months. I'm planning on putting 30+ hours into the car each week until complete. This is my first conversion, thus I don't have the experience to project lead. I certainly would be agreeable to an open door project where my work schedule is posted on a calendar. FVEAA members would be welcome to come and help at any time.
I'm planning on converting a 1990 Mazda Miata manual trans, which with any luck I will have tomorrow. ICE curb weight 2100lbs. Valence curb weight ~2300lbs. Cost $1,500
The car will be used as a commuter car and weekend fun. The car is a two seater and I hope to have a 40 mile range and 65-70MPH top end.
I'll be doing the conversion at my home in Willowbrook. My Escape Hybrid will get a drive way parking spot as I do the conversion in my gargage.
I have 15K set aside for the conversion. My current plan is to get a kit from EV-America for $6,500 including ADC 8" motor, Curtis controller, adapter plate, motor mount, etc...
The GM volt is reported to have a 16KW battery pack with a 40 mile range. Curb weight is estimated at 3,500lbs. I can switch the Valence CSS to 122AH which will provide a 15.6KW battery pack with 10 batteries and a curb weight of ~2,300lbs. My orginal thought was to go for less power so I could afford the batteries if they offer a really good deal. The 100ah batteries are listed around $2,000 each, while the 122ah batteries are listed at $2,500.
I won't send anything to Valence without your approval. You're probably the only one they would listen to anyway.
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Someone needs to do more 'capacitor' studying. If they can get '400,000 to 1 million volts' from two '9 volt' batteries for these stun guns, we should be able to somehow use the electronic technology to extend our battery life. :o I might buy one to take apart and study:
"Stun Guns From 100,000 to 1.2 Million Volts
( 400,000 Volt to 1,000,000 Volt Small Fry Miniature Stun Guns SALE " ... Requires two 9 volt alkaline batteries. R750 750,000 Volts (6.5") SALE: $39.99 ...
nservices.com/stun.htm")::
I am also studying the application of gears.
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Great comment; but first we should see if ultra-caps are going to be expensive, how many necessary, there size and also, if they are available to us.
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I am working with ultacapacitors in my company, developing alternative power sources for automobiles. Ultracapacitors are great for storing energy for short high-power bursts, such as zapping people or accelerating from a stop light. They are also good for storing energy recovered during braking. If you look, you will note that the stun guns take a certain amount of time to recharge (like a camera flash), and the discharge is very short (less than a millisecond). It is this ratio between charge and discharge times that multiplies the battery power up to the needed stun power.
Driving off capacitors continuously is another matter. The charge q held by a capacitor is equal to the capacitance C times the voltage V. The current I drawn from a capacitor is equal to C times the change in voltage deltaV divided by the time deltaT needed to make that change in voltage. This is very different from a battery, which tends to hold a relatively constant voltage until most of its charge has been extracted.
Maxwell Technologies sells ultracapacitors designed for automotive use. For example, they sell a 3000 Farad capacitor rated for 2.7 Volts that has a mass of 0.55 kG and is 0.475 liters in volume. In volumes of 100+, they sell for about $100 each. Some electric motor controllers will operate nominally over a factor of two range of input voltage from the batteries. Let us assume a motor controller that will take the voltage range of 135 Volts to 75 Volts. In this situation, deltaV is 60 Volts. Since 50 ultracapacitors are needed to support the peak voltage of 135 volts, the initial series string will cost $5,000. The capacitance of two identical capacitors in series is half the capacitance of each unit. Therefore, our series capacitance is 60 Farads. So 60 Volts times 60 Farads yields 360 Amp-seconds of charge. Not Ah (Amp-hours), but Amp-seconds. Let us say that you want to accelerate real fast, like a Tesla. Assume 720 Amps for 5 seconds. You will need 10 stings in parallel to store enough energy for that kind of acceleration. So now the total cost is $50,000 and you have 1 Ah of charge. The weight of the 500 ultracapacitors is 275 kg, or 600 lbs. The volume of the 500 ultracapacitors is roughly 200 gallons, or the volume of two 55 gallon drums. Alternatively, you can drives calmly at 70 Amps for about one minute.
No editorial comments, just the facts.
Gerry
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I am working with ultacapacitors in my company, developing alternative power sources for automobiles. Ultracapacitors are great for storing energy for short high-power bursts, such as zapping people or accelerating from a stop light. They are also good for storing energy recovered during braking. If you look, you will note that the stun guns take a certain amount of time to recharge (like a camera flash), and the discharge is very short (less than a millisecond). It is this ratio between charge and discharge times that multiplies the battery power up to the needed stun power.
Driving off capacitors continuously is another matter. The charge q held by a capacitor is equal to the capacitance C times the voltage V. The current I drawn from a capacitor is equal to C times the change in voltage deltaV divided by the time deltaT needed to make that change in voltage. This is very different from a battery, which tends to hold a relatively constant voltage until most of its charge has been extracted.
Maxwell Technologies sells ultracapacitors designed for automotive use. For example, they sell a 3000 Farad capacitor rated for 2.7 Volts that has a mass of 0.55 kG and is 0.475 liters in volume. In volumes of 100+, they sell for about $100 each. Some electric motor controllers will operate nominally over a factor of two range of input voltage from the batteries. Let us assume a motor controller that will take the voltage range of 135 Volts to 75 Volts. In this situation, deltaV is 60 Volts. Since 50 ultracapacitors are needed to support the peak voltage of 135 volts, the initial series string will cost $5,000. The capacitance of two identical capacitors in series is half the capacitance of each unit. Therefore, our series capacitance is 60 Farads. So 60 Volts times 60 Farads yields 360 Amp-seconds of charge. Not Ah (Amp-hours), but Amp-seconds. Let us say that you want to accelerate real fast, like a Tesla. Assume 720 Amps for 5 seconds. You will need 10 stings in parallel to store enough energy for that kind of acceleration. So now the total cost is $50,000 and you have 1 Ah of charge. The weight of the 500 ultracapacitors is 275 kg, or 600 lbs. The volume of the 500 ultracapacitors is roughly 200 gallons, or the volume of two 55 gallon drums. Alternatively, you can drives calmly at 70 Amps for about one minute.
No editorial comments, just the facts.
Gerry
[Gerry,
That's what I was thinking...about using the ultracapacitors for acceleration so that the charge in the batteries will last longer. Also, I like the idea of incorporating the regenerative brakes.]
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The success of the AFS Trinity SUV Hybrid (PHEV) is largely due to using ultra-caps in this PHEV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUe7F8NsDzo