FVEAA Forums
The FVEAA's Projects => Extended Range EVs => Topic started by: wayne.mcguire on December 13, 2007, 10:07:16 PM
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ERIC POSTED A LINK ON A GUY IN KANSAS BY THE NAME OF GOODMAN THAT IS CONVERTING LARGE GAS HOGS TO ELECTRIC WITH GAS/DIESEL GENERATORS TO BACKUP THE BATTERIES.
WHEN IT'S TIME FOR ME AND OTHERS TO CONVERT TO ELECTRIC, I WOULD BE HELPFUL TO HAVE TO SOME BACK GROUND INFORMATION ON WHAT IS AVAILABLE OR REQUIRED TO ADD A GENERATOR.
I'M SURE THERE ARE MANY OR US THAT WOULD LIKE TO VENTURE MORE THAN 40 MILES FROM HOME.
WAYNE
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I've heard mixed reviews of Goodwin's work. He's been getting a lot of press but I hear a lot of his suff is impractical and he "embellishes" performance statistics to reporters.
I've been interested in the subject of range-extending trailers (RET) since I saw the old AC Propulsion concept for the TZero. It's interesting to note that they abandoned this concept as being outside their sphere of expertise (being Electrical Engineers).
In my opinion, small, highly efficient diesel engines that can run biodiesel are the best bet for RETs. I heard that Daimler has just such an engine in design, based on their new, super low polluting bluetec engines.
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0-5-1003148-1-1003157-1-0-0-0-0-0-36-7165-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html
I'm watching this closely as I'm as attracted to biodiesel as to EV's.
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This is a project I'm interested in taking on, but I'll need help. I heard from a friend there is a glut of highly efficient and clean used diesel engines in Japan. I don't know if it's cost-effective to try to get them over here or if there would be import restrictions, etc...
I can write all of the controller logic for the genset and figure out the data acquisition from battery sensors, etc... but here are a LOT of little tasks involved in getting this project to work. I'm going to start on the project plan in my spare time and should have something I can show by the next meeting. Is there anyone else interested in working on this with me?
Matt
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Definitely, count me in! We're basically talking about a Chevy Volt-like series-hybrid (electric drive only, ICE genset charges batteries). i'd like to challenge the FVEAA and all takers to build the first homebrew bio-diesel series hybrid (and run it on free veggie oil:-). The bio-D is especially important to me, since diesel fuel is equally evil as gasoline.
Here's a story about Thailand using used cooking oil (from Thai Restaurants, i guess just natively called Restaurants:-). Besides giving the restaurant owners a financial incentive to recycle their oil (instead of landfilling it), it has improved their air quality by 50%!
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/01/23/delacruz.snow.day.call.cnn (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/01/23/delacruz.snow.day.call.cnn)
Finally, the diesel motors from Japan probably wouldn't pass the new American standard for low-sulphur diesel fuel emissions (which went into effect in Jan 1, 2007).
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Sounds like an iteresting concept to me - Who's gathering when & where to do what??
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I could be wrong on this (some research would probably be prudent) but it was my impression that emissions standards in Japan even six or seven years ago were higher than our new low-sulphur clean diesel standards. That's why I thought used crate motors from there might actually be a good choice. Still, it would probably be a lot smarter to reduce project complexity by starting out with a clean engine that wouldn't require a lot of logistics. Maybe we can find one here in the States.
Along that train of thought, has the FVEAA had much luck in the past getting industry sponsors for components such as the components we're talking about (small clean diesel motor, generator, sensors, etc...)? I've had a little bit of luck in the past partnering with Middle Tennessee State University and some of the work they're doing there. They have a 10KW array and produce a lot of hydrogen to support their EV, hydrogen-EV hybrid, hydrogen-only, etc. projects. In case you're wondering, they don't fool with fool cells . They burn their H2. It's an interesting program and the data collector and genset controller work we'll have to do would help them on a similar H2-burning genset project they're doing. Maybe they can help us with parts or expertise. We'll still probably need a sponsor for the motor itself, unless we want to do this in stages and start out with a less advanced (less clean) motor until we get it all working and then look for a motor sponsor at that point. That would be my recommendation.
I hesitate to mention this because I don't want to clutter the objectives of the project but once we have this thing working I'd love to also experiment with H2-injection techniques to get the motor to run even cleaner and more efficiently. That's for later.
Matt
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Sounds like an iteresting concept to me - Who's gathering when & where to do what??
Well if anyone wants to help me with the project plan I'd be happy to meet with folks somewhere in the western burbs. I'm trying not to stray too far from the Lisle-Naperville-Aurora corridor since I'm driving a horrible guzzler until my baby is back on the road. I never realized just how badly cold weather affected range. Nashville doesn't get anywhere near this cold for long.
Matt
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I'm in bolingbrook (almost right next door).
I am hoping to "actually make it" to the 944 session tomorrow (subject to change).
Unless folks "just can't wait to discuss this" perhaps a sidebar during intermission at the next FVEAA meeting, unless the organization would rather not "cross technologies".
Yes, I'm looking forward to exploring this some more.
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wrong link Ted
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I'm also interested in this serial hybrid concept.
Please notify me of any meetings.
Tracy Talley
TMT E-MOTION
Homer Glen, Illinois
www.tmtemotion.com
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First of all, thanks to Matt for charging ahead on this "project".
I'd like to volunteer my house as a potential venue for meeting on this topic. I'm in Glen Ellyn, near Butterfield & IL-53; only a couple of minutes from I-88 & I-355. I know Matt is staying in Aurora right now.
I have done a lot of exploration into efficient diesel generators, as well as hydrogen combustion, etc. I have a few contacts in this area, as well, that might be of some help. I have a few books and ebooks on the subject, too.
After talking to Jim Dawson last meeting, I'm almost certain that my Fiat, once converted, will not be able to get me to work in Palatine or Chicago on a single charge alone, assuming highway speeds. This is necessary for me. The thought of a range-extending clean/biodiesel genset on a small trailer is ideal. Perhaps someday when a better battery technology becomes available and affordable, I can retire my genset or use it only for "long trips". Until then, I love the idea of at least getting 60+ MPG and then only burning carbon neutral biodiesel.
If you haven't looked at the following site, it's worth the time. Steven Harris has put together a significant collection of resources that explore alternative fuels mainly outside EV's. I have his "Hydrogen car DVD" and the book Solar Hydrogen Civilization, among others. I look forward to being involved in this effort!
http://www.knowledgepublications.com
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Thanks, Terry. I guess the next thing for us to do is to go ahead and set some meeting times. Since I travel back to Nashville every other weekend and my wife comes up at least once a month, I only have one weekend a month here and it's usually devoted to doing laundry... :)
So if no one objects, I'd love to try to set something up during the week. I've asked my boss and he has told me we can use our proprietary online project management tool to define the project. That would allow us all to contribute remotely to the project plan. That will be set up in the next week. I figure we can meet once in a while (monthly? semi-monthly?) and do the rest online.
As far as scheduling the first meeting, I'll defer to Terry since he's offering to host. Tuesdays are generally best for me, but not next Tuesday. :)
Matt
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IF YOU SET UP A TIME AND PLACE FOR MEETINGS ON GEN BACKUP PLEASE COUNT ME IN.
I'M STILL IN THE PLANNING STAGES FOR MY CONVERSION AND THIS WOULD BE A PLUS IN MY DESIGN.
THANKS
WAYNE
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Matt & all,
Tuesdays work for me. By the time I get home from work and fix supper for my son and me, we'd be ready around 7PM any night. If we want to schedule the first meeting for Tuesday, February 12, that would be great. Let's take the logistics off-line and anyone interested in attending (Glen Ellyn near Route 53/Butterfield Rd) please email me at terrypk@yahoo.com. I will build an email distribution list for the sub-team and we'll correspond that way and post updates to this forum.
-Terry Kane
terrypk@yahoo.com
630-776-1405 (mobile)
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Great initiative folks! Count me in! We don't need to go offline with the project though, let's keep it open and available to all FVEAAers.
i can make the Tues. Feb 12th meeting if you host it Terry.
Now let's talk some details...
Is this project in fact the creation of a Homebrew Series Hybrid ? (Like the Volt but cheaper:-)
Does the Hybrid necessarily indicate that we need to use two (or more) types of fuel ? Or drives ?
What are the goals ? Extended Range ? Performance ? One-size-fits-all ?
i've heard of a number of different kind of hybrids:
- commercial parallel (Prius, Lexus, Ford Escape)
- commercial with homebrew mods aka current plugin-parallel (modified Prius)
series (Volt)
- converted plug-in parallel hybrid (front wheel gasoline drive and rear wheel electric drive, aka adding electric - drive to a front wheel ICE)
Can i toss out a name that is a bad pun and way too early:
FVOLT = Fox Valley Obviously Liberating Transportation
i think we have the smarts and motives to pull off something cool here folks!
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It sounds like we have sufficient interest in our first meeting being Tuesday, February 12. We will begin at 7:00 PM at my house. The Address can be found on the roster or email me at terrypk@yahoo.com or call me at 630-776-1405.
We should use this first meeting to discuss our goals, throw out as many ideas as we can and generally try to reach consensus on what we’d like to accomplish, as a group.
Ted, as President, can you advise if there are any rules or formalities we need to follow?
I’d like to add my two cents regarding scope. I see the ICE/genset as a crutch to bridge the gap between our beloved conversion EVs with PbA batteries/limited range and the battery technology that will give us all the range/performance we want. So my idea is a very sleek trailer with a high efficiency diesel genset that can provide enough Watt-hours while driving to supplement my battery pack & let me drive on the tollway (at ambient speeds) for my 25 mile commute. If I drive within my EV’s range; I leave the trailer at home. If I drive beyond the range but can’t plug in at the destination, the genset will charge the battery.
I’d like to size my genset by measuring the WH/mile of my car traveling at, say, 70 MPH for 25 miles (and towing weight). Then subtract the capacity of my battery pack to 80% DOD. The remaining WH/mile determines my minimum generator capacity.
As for the engine, I’d like to use a diesel in which I can burn biodiesel and perhaps even straight grease. I’d like to incorporate as many energy and pollution saving modifications as possible. I think a Brown’s gas (HHO) generator is the first option and possibly a diesel particle filter on the exhaust. It would be nice to use the heat for battery and cabin warming. That makes the interconnection challenging! I’d need a power hookup, data/control hookup and 2 coolant lines – all quick-connect, weather-proof and flexible!
I guess with a larger vehicle or a pickup truck, it would be logical to have the genset on-board. The only inefficiency there would be you’re hauling around ‘dead weight’ whenever you don’t need the extended range over battery-only mode. This would constitute a series-hybrid a/k/a range-extended EV. Also, this option is not as easily reversible if/when the 'magic' battery becomes available.
See you Tuesday!
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Hi Gang, if you are going to use a brushless generator they use capacitors to excite te field. It's important not to exceed 62 hertz 3600 rpm is equal to 60 hertz. If you were considering changing rpm to adjust output voltage. It will damage the capacitors.
If you could find a 3 phase generator it would be very efficient.
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Thanks for going ahead with the meeting logistics, Terry. Just as an update: My boss approved using our project management system. Now I just have to get them to turn it on for us, which may take a little time since the guys will do it in their spare time. I'll try to see if I can bribe them to do it prior to Tuesday so I can demonstrate it at the meeting. It will make tracking the overall project easier.
As to scope, I think we should definitely strive to create something that will be equally at home on a trailer as in the bed of a pickup. I'd like to do this in stages such as first solving some of the general control issues while using the manual-pull gas generator I just bought at our very own auction. Meanwhile, others may work on getting a diesel engine with emissions controls and coupling it with a generator. Once those things are done, we can start working on the extras, such as the trailer, the couplings, ways to increase efficiency (HHO, etc...) and maybe even finding a way to use the waste heat.
Anyway, the first step of all is to get all of this into a project plan and start to figure out who is getting involved, each person's skillset, and how much time they can devote. Task and resource management is the name of the game.
See you all on Tuesday!
Matt
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Would the 'diesel-gen set' in the below website be doable for this project?
http://www.generatorsdirect.net/servlet/the-131/DP6500DE-Economy-Diesel-Generator/Detail
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That's a nice little generator but a little small, I believe it runs at 3600 rpm too not really designed for continuous use, some are though. Figure out the minimum horsepower to run your vehicle at 60 mph then add 20%. It should be arround 12 to 20 HP depending on wieght and wind resistance.
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Many thanks to Terry Kane for hosting last night's meeting and to Wayne McGuire for his great input and the documents he added to the discussion. We had a really good talk about the scope of the project and some of the details from the first few phases all the way to a cool HHO-powered or supplemented system (much later). We also got started putting the first few entries into the project plan into the OnTrack project management system that Lextech has graciously donated. We expect to have the broad outlines and some details filled in by Friday so we'll have something for show-and-tell at the meeting.
Matt
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Yes, we had just 3 attendees last night, owing to the weather and schedule conflicts, etc. Wayne, Matt and I did manage some stimulating discussion and aired a number of ideas for the scope, short- and long-term actions and general goals of the effort. There is a broad variety of viewpoints already but that's only natural. We all agreed that the project will proceed in phases and the first phase is planning. We then envisioned an "alpha" unit that will help us observe/measure how supplemental generated power will effect the operation of a conventional conversion EV. "Beta" will be an improvement based on what we learn/innovate; and so on. Matt has suggested that his recently acquired Honda genset be the "alpha" unit and that seems to make sense. We all agreed that each of us brings unique talent and knowledge to the project and that more participation will provide more skills & knowledge brought to bear in all phases of the project.
I'd like to suggest that everyone interested in participating/contributing should begin by posting his or her individual vision for the scope of the project. I've stated mine above - being a desire for a "trailered" genset powered by a diesel engine and capable of giving me highway speeds and a 50 mile daily round-trip. This would apply to a later-phase output of the team, probably beyond "beta".
We could really use some Electrical Engineering support - we tried some calculations regarding WH/mile; how to couple the generator output to the EV; AC vs. DC generation; etc. and found that our collective knowledge was somewhat lacking. I'm certain that anyone who's willing to put in some time will learn a lot and contribute a lot - come join us next time and post here in the meantime!
Ted - I hope you can give us 5 minutes at Friday's meeting to introduce this effort to the members.
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As alluded to in my last post, we now have a project management system (OnTrack) for our project, generously donated by Lextech Global Services, my employer. It can be reached at:
http://fveaa-ontrack.lextech.com
If you are interested in participating in the project (and especially in the project planning), you'll need a username and password to this system. Contact me and I'll set you up. Below are some instructions on what you can expect once you do use the system.
Clicking on the link above should take you to a login page, where you will enter the user and password that you were assigned. Please note that the system does not work well in Internet Explorer (IE), so you'll have to use Firefox. To download firefox, go to http://www.getfirefox.com and follow the instructions. Once it is installed, I recommend making it your default web browser since it is more secure than IE but that's a personal choice. If there are sites that you use that require IE, feel free to contact me and I can show you how to install a plugin called IE Tab that lets you use IE inside of firefox.
Once you're logged into OnTrack, you'll want to click on the Projects button at the top and on the Genset project link to view the project tasks. This is where we will be adding and modifying the project plan. I will try to see if we have some user documentation for OnTrack. I'm pretty sure we haven't yet documented all of the newest Web 2.0 features (such as dragging tasks to reorder or change child-parent task relationships, right-clicking on a task to get a menu of options, and double-clicking a task to edit the task name). In the meanwhile, feel free to call me to ask about how to use it.
At this time, I have not really put any security controls other than the initial login on the project. Everyone can edit, update, or delete any task. This means we need to be careful and polite about what we do to the project plan. For now, please let me know before you move things around that are already in the project. Feel free to add things in wherever you think it's appropriate, but let's email each other a summary of our recent changes so that we can all stay abreast of the changes being made and we can discuss anything that would constitute a major change in the plan. Eventually, we'll have to assign one or more project managers who will make changes to the project while others just log updates and time worked.
I'm really looking forward to getting this project kicked into high gear and working with you guys.
Thanks,
Matt
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Kenigson
Manager of Systems Engineering
Lextech Global Services Corporation
V. 630.420.9670 x105 C. 630.390.0767
V. 888.677.5250 x105 F. 630.839.0123
http://www.lextech.com
Connecting the unconnectable...
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Ricky, I've looked at that precise diesel genset from that site before, actually. Only one obvious strike against it - that it's a standard genset not optimized for low emissions. Even so, it may be a good intermediate-step drop-in. I was seriously considering it for Phase II of our project, where we start playing with being able to automatically turn on and off the genset as needed.
My hope for this project is that we can identify several intermediate steps so that our eventual project outputs will meet a variety of needs. Of course I want the ultimate solution to be a full end-to-end product but it will be nice to have complete solutions for folks who don't need the full shebang and want to go with some commodity drop-in pieces.
Matt
PS - My apology to readers for the out-of-sequence post. I started this one two days ago and forgot I never finished it. It's only because I never shut down my laptop that I still have it at all.
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Hi Matt, Terry, et al,
Sounds like you had a great meeting Tuesday and are well on your way embarking on an interesting journey for sure!
i will try to attend the next meeting, have you scheduled one yet ? i can put my EE two-cents in but would better at contributing CS cents should this project needs it :-)
i want to make a very important point up front and that is for this project to "be careful" with the BEV image. The BEV is a very simple, clean, quiet and efficient transportation choice, albeit with limited range with affordable lead acid batteries. By extending the range of a BEV with a homebrew fossil fuel burning engine, we could be defeating the very purposes of driving a BEV in the first place. So that is why my vision for this project is to make a homebrew Chevy Volt-like series hybrid. It will be elegant looking, clean and quiet as possible and just as efficient or more than BEV and way more efficient than an ICE only.
BEV people have been putting gensets in their truck beds, trunks, on trailers (or roofs - hi Tim:-) for decades, so IMHO this project should aim to significantly jump beyond this "done that" approach. In Terry's case, he wants 50 mile highway speeds range. i have near that already in m S10. This could very easily be achieved with a lighter more aerodynamic perhaps direct-drive vehicle (especially with next-rung-up batteries like the Firefly lead acids coming out soon).
The last thing i want to do is squash any motivation to innovate, so lets just keep in mind that a lot of smart talented motivated people have/are working on projects like this, so lets try to advance the state-of-the-art by researching previous/current efforts and bettering them! i look forward to helping out in these efforts!
Kind regards,
ted
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With your permission, i'd like to move this topic into a new Board in the category FVEAA Projects. Please suggest a Board name, like BEV Range Extension, or Battery/Genset Hybrid, etc.
Thanks!
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Moving the board is a good idea, Ted. I suggest the "as-generic-as-possible" name: Range Extension Team. If that's not a catch-all, I don't know what is...
;D TK
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I noticed that our parent organization eaaev.org uses the term "SIG" or "special interest group" to refer to efforts such as PHEV's, etc. Perhaps this group should be called the Range Extension SIG...
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I found this very extensive document in the archives of AC Propulsion. Along the lines of what Ted suggested, this document outlines a very well thought-out project by AC propulsion. This was done back before they tied themselves to the Tesla. I think we have a great chance to build on such work and take it to the next level.
http://www.fveaa.org/fb/Low_Emiss_Range_Ext_149.pdf
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Saw a show on discovery channel last night called 'future Vision' about different types of 'future vehicles' one was a diesel genset they claimed would travel at speeds of 140MPH and only got 114 MPG at the same time (no typos in #'s) - below is website listing schedule of future shows. I was hoping to find a video of last nights show - but didn't do a very good job of it
http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/series.html?paid=1.9688.25316.33193.4
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Terry,
Great find! I've been looking for that document for ages. Let's use some of the concepts in that document as a template for determining tasks and direction.
Unfortunately, I won't be able to be at the meeting tonight. I've got a plane to catch. Best I can do is to stop by for a few minutes at the very beginning.
Matt
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We've been talking about tracking down a small very-low-emission diesel engine. I found the following blurb at the site posted below. This may be the smoking gun we're looking for! If this 40HP CDI was sold in Canada in Smart cars, maybe we can find a wrecked Smart in a junkyard in Canada and get the engine! I'm excited about this possibility.
February 2004: smart fortwo coupe and cabrio cdi diesels to be sold in Canada beginning in 2004
3.8 liter per 100 km on the highway (62 MPG), 4.6 l/100km in the city (51 MPG) and 4.2 l/100km combined (56 MPG). It's the world's smallest cdi diesel engine with 3 cylinders and 40 hp.
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/diesel_2.html
Another nice thing about a CDI Engine (normally aspirated) is that it is compatible with Brown's gas (HHO) supplemented combustion...
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I spent a few minutes this afternoon trying to track down a used 800cc CDI from a smart Fortwo. So far I found two of them and they quoted me $4,500 and $5,000 (plus shipping). Perhaps, with negotiation, we could get this figure down but it's not an awful number, I guess. The AC Propulsion document mentions a 15-25 KW requirement. I'll be looking next for a ~20 KW alternator. The document mentions surplus aircraft alternators. I will spend some time looking for that next.
Let's schedule the next meeting for Tuesday, February 26 from 7:00 PM to 10:00 PM at my house again. Please email me if you are interested in attending or if you want to be added to the E-REV roster but can't attend. terrypk@yahoo.com