Author Topic: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries  (Read 32039 times)

john.emde

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Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« on: May 07, 2010, 12:18:44 PM »
Todd

Now that you have had a little time to test the difference between your 8 volt flooded lead acid batteries and your new LiFePO4 battery pack with Mini BMS, inquiring minds would like to know all the details.  Besides being cleaner.  Range?  Charging ability?   What is the difference in weight and can you notice any handling and performance difference?  Would you/will you do it again?

howard.hansen

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2010, 12:36:25 AM »
He tells me car requires less power due to reduced weight and has more power due to voltage more steady under load.  Mini BMS as I understand is any cell too low sounds a buzzer or too high initiates charger shutdown sequence.  Now Bug has unrelated mechanical problems. 

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2010, 03:43:36 AM »
Thank you Howard - your assessment is generally correct.

As noted in the FVEAA message board, the bug has encountered mechanical coupling problems which we cannot fix until early next week.  What this means for the committed 'very little or no gas usage'  green guy is a lot of walking or riding the bicycle.  Oh well, I could use the exercise.

So - more specifics on the Lithium pack.  I've done some longer test runs in between shorter daily use.  Below I note the test runs, and after all that show the PbA comparison.

Test run #1: approximately 27 miles (9 miles then 18 miles over 2 days) - to get the bug home from Pioneer conversions.  No problems.  Local surface roads, rough weather (rain/cold) in early April.  BMS indicators hooked up, but not the buzzer.  No red lights showing (red light on BMS = BAD - either over or under voltage).  Energy back into the pack:  approximately 9-10 kWh.  Energy use - about 350 wH/mile.

Test run#2:  22 miles continual, mixed local surface and highway.  Energy - 7kWh back into the pack.  BMS hooked up - warning was a cheap Radio Shack 12V Fan!  No problems.  Energy - 330 wH/mile.

Test run #3:  32 miles (I see a pattern here!) - mixed surface roads and highway.  Energy - 11kWh; 350 wh/mile.  Replaced the 12V warning fan for the BMS with a buzzer.


More to follow -

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2010, 03:50:06 AM »
(more)

Test run #4:  42 miles (more pattern).  Energy back - 14 kWh, about 340 wh/mile.  Mixed hwy and surface.

Test run #5:  54 miles (hey I broke the pattern!) - 16 kWh, only 291 wh/mile!  I had the wind at my back.  Mostly hwy driving at 55-60mph.  Car runs very smoothly at that speed.  No warnings for low voltage whatsoever.

The theoretical pack value is about 24 kWh - so with 55 miles I used about 2/3 of the pack, meaning I would have a theoretical range of 83 miles!  Of course, you don't want to push your batts to the limit, and you want to keep about 20%-90% SOC.  So, maybe the range limitation is more like 70 miles or so.

It is important to note that I don't have an SOC at all.  When I find one out there that I'm comfortable with, I will get it (I had the PakTrackr and that sucked - it didn't measure real SOC or amp usage worth a horse's ass).

Weight - I've dropped about 500 lbs.  I need to get the car weighed - when it's back on the road.

The PbA system had a maximum range of 43 miles, when the T-875 (8V) Trojans were working good.  The good period lasted about 5,000 miles or 1 year for me.  After that, they went downhill in a hurry.  I had a devil of a time with them this winter, and had to replace 5 of them just to keep the car running.

more to follow

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2010, 03:58:21 AM »
The PbA batts (18 of them) cost about $2,200 originally, and to replace 5 of them (I actually replaced 6 - 1 was covered under warranty) cost me about $800.  So, total $3,000 into a pack that lasted me about 7,000 miles.  Waste of $$!  Very high per-mile cost.  And, keep in mind, the last 2,000 of those miles were a major fight to keep them charged.  Towards the end, I was able to do about 25 miles on a charge at best.  I've heard of others having better experience (15k miles) with the T-890 batteries, so maybe I just had bad luck.  PbA sucks nuts.

Another thing is that the PbA system would sag under acceleration loads, but you could take 800 amps out of the batteries.  For the LiFePo, I haven't taken more than about 450 amps out of them, so acceleration is slower (you can't do any jack-rabbit starts).  So that's the only drawback I've seen.  And, to take care of the LiFePo (batts are 160 amp-hours), you don't want to draw more than 450amps for more than a couple seconds anyway, or else you will ruin them.

The PbA was a 144V system (18 8V in series).  Top resting voltage was about 152 volts.  With sag, even fully charged, they dropped below 120V often (momentarily).  After about 10 miles, even when new, they would sag under lower current draws (but not bad), and you could feel them starting to run out of energy after about 20 miles, even when new.  Later, when older, you would feel this after 10 miles.  So, you could get 40 miles on a charge, but that's with no hwy, no heater, babying the accelerator, and even after all that you essentially limp for the last 10 miles.  No fun.  Again, PbA bites dingle-berries.

more to follow

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2010, 04:05:57 AM »
To summarize PbA, weight was about 1,100 lbs, I have heavy-duty custom springs in the back, but the bug still creaked like an 80 year old on a bike ride.  The real practical range was close to about 30 miles when new if you wanted an enjoyable ride and much less when old.

Now comes along LiFePo.  I have 48 LiFePo 160 aH in series.  Resting voltage rated at 154V, true resting voltage at about 160V.  Here's the kicker - NO SAG!  With heavy draw on acceleration - maybe it drops to 150V.  After 10 miles cruising down the road at 40mph - 150+ volts.  After 20 miles - same.  After 30 miles - same.  After 40 miles - same.  After 50 miles - same!  You get the picture.  No sag.  Even with acceleration, I have not seen my volt meter needle drop below 144V EVER.  These babies are like the Energizer bunny on Steroids.  They are truly a technical marvel to use and drive with.

I won't be doing any hot-rodding due to the current draw limitations (you want these to last 100k miles if you can).

So I charge every night, and the BMS shuts the charger down (I have a Manzanita PFC-20) - actually, it goes into low current (3 amps or less) charging time-out for about 1/2 hour.  This happens as soon as the first battery hits about 3.65 V.  It will throw the red light.  By the time the charger winds down, about 1/3 or so of the batts throw red lights - and upon measure, none are higher than 3.7V.  For comparison, the maximum voltage you want to go is 4.2V and that is only on the 1st time to balance the batts.

More to follow.

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2010, 04:11:39 AM »
The under-voltage warning is through the BMS - the buzzer.  If any battery goes below 2.6V, it throws a signal to the BMS control unit and sounds the buzzer.  If that happens, you limp home at about 10mph or disconnect and bypass the offending battery.  You will get a red light on the cell module if this happens (normal operation - green light).

The BMS consists of cell modules on each cell, the control unit, wiring to series string them altogether, and wires that go to the RJ input for the charger - Reg Bus pins #1 and #2.  Even without the regbus, the charger would time out at about 172V (max - 3.6 V per battery).

The BMS costs about $650.

The charger is a Manzanita Micro - PFC 20 - I got it used for $1,275.  New is about $2,000.  You could use a Zivan, but would need to rig up a BMS to throw a signal if any battery hit 3.6V, to a relay contactor, which would then turn off the Zivan.  The charger should be constant current - constant voltage, which I think the Manzanita and the Zivans are.


Batteries - about $10,300 for 50 of them.  So, I have 2 extra if anyone wants to play and test.

more to follow

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2010, 04:18:04 AM »
Total system cost: $12,225, including charger.  For comparison, the PbA cost $3,000 (noted earlier) + $1,000 for the Zivan HV charger, or about $4,000.

Without charger, system costs are about $11,000 for LiFePo and $3,000 for PbA.  Oh another thing - you need to water PbA every month (pain), and you get HCL everywhere - burns holes in the car's carpet, your clothes, rags, gloves, you name it.

In one incident my PbA batts were so bad, they couldn't get near the max voltage that they used to, and the Manzanita happily pumped 15amps into the batts for about 12 hours, not cutting back because it wasn't approaching max voltage.  I had battery acid water vapor that had  condensed EVERYWHERE in the car - it took hours to clean up.  I litterally ruined 3 pair of heavy-duty leather work gloves in the process.  They had holes in them the next week (even after washing) the size of Manhattan.  Never again with the lead!

So back to costs.  The LiFePo batts are 3.6 x the cost of PbA.  What do you get for your extra $$?
  • longer range - 70+ real fun miles compared to 25 ok miles
    longer life (assuming you take care of them) - 100k miles compared to my dismal 7k miles for PbA.  Time will tell if this holds true.
more to follow

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2010, 04:25:19 AM »
Conclusion (yeah!)

So, the early going is that I'm totally happy with LiFePo.  I no longer have range anxiety, at least for the wide swath of land we call the Chicago metro area.  To all my friends and back, without needing an opportunity charge.

Handling - car weighs 500 lbs less - handles much better!  Less squeaking in the back - but still a little, since I have about 400 lbs of LiFePo back there, still keeping the heavy duty springs.

Disadvantage over lead?  Cost!  However, COSTS FOR LIFEPO HAVE BEEN COMING DOWN AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO.  There are thousands of large batteries that are shipped to the US each month for hobbyist and other industrial use.  The world of Lithium is getting more competitive yet is still lucrative.  I look forward to future costs decreasing, so more of my buds can do LiFePo (right Howard?)

Disadvantage over a new Nissan Leaf?  Our cars still break down (my recent experience).  I now have to install a permanent air cooling system for the motor, and may have to get it cleaned up or re-furbished (we'll see what damage 2 winters have done to it!)

Advantages over lead?  Numerous!  I've cited many reasons here.  The biggest one - the LiFePo electric car acts very much like a gas car in what you would expect in performance and range, at least for daily and local use.  It is a much better car to drive.  Lithium batteries are the real deal!


SO, GO LITHIUM AND GO EVS!

ken.simmermon

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2010, 11:56:56 AM »
Great Job Todd!!! very exciting news.... have you recalibrated your controller to limit the current? Good luck with the coupler repair. 
Ken Simmermon

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2010, 01:01:28 AM »
No, not yet.  But that's forthcoming.

By the way, the car used to get about 400 wH/mile.  So efficiency has improved a lot.

Update:  Jim Dawson had the motor and trans out today (thank you Jim!).  The problem is the clutch disk - it broke and all the little spring parts disintegrated.  Jim ordered a new one and will strengthen it via a MIG welder.  The part will come in by Monday.

I'm trying to get an adaptor so that I can have the output airflow from the squirrel cage blower go to an input that will go to the motor.  So, I need to rig up an adaptor for the connections.  I went to Home Depot and bought a few things to try this.

With the increased range, John Emde recommends that we cool the motor at all times via a constant airflow.

I'll be back from a biz trip late Tuesday night and will try to pick up the car Wed.  Hopefully it will get back on the road.  Jim looked at the motor and it's not too bad (not too much debris in there) - so he blew out all the carbon, etc.

I'll keep everyone updated with further developments.

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2010, 06:28:56 AM »
More updates -

Jim did a good job getting the new clutch disk in.  He also had it welded for strength.  A special thanks to George Gladic for taking me out to Jim's garage last Saturday to see the work, and to Jim for doing the work.

He also wired the reverse lights (I had not done that), and mounted the band on the end of the WarP! 9" motor.

I was able to pick up the car on Wed. and drive it home.  About 1/2 way there (8 miles), I stopped at a gas station (of all places) to check the motor - since I didn't have the blower cooler (squirrel cage) fan installed yet.  The motor was ok - it was only about 52 degreees F that day.  Off on my merry way, but alas - main contactor won't engage!  Oh no - what now?
 
Turns out that a small wire to the Hairball for 12V in was loose at a fuse.  So, I wiggled the fuse a bit until contact was made, and walla - everything worked and I got home.

I installed the squirrel cage blower and had rigged up an adaptor to go from the square output of the blower to the 2" input (hose) to the motor band.  I took out the temp switch so that the blower is running when the ignition key is on.

Continued...

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2010, 06:40:04 AM »
The new blower works nicely, albeit may be too much cooling - I notice when the motor isn't running, the blower has a tough time trying to push stagnant air, so a lot leaks out at the junction.  I haven't yet seen it in action when the motor is running.

Anyway, with the new band that seals up the intake air of the motor (except the tube opening), I shouldn't need to worry any longer about nasty salt, water, etc. getting into the motor - so I can ride all winter long!

One of the drawbacks with the blower is that there is now soo much crammed under my hood, that the intake hose butts up against some small yet important wires that go to the Hairball for the Zilla Controller.  This could cause a problem (no starting), so I'm thinking of re-positioning some of the components.  I may go to Jim's shop again tomorrow to get some advice on this.  As an example, I have about 12 relays for all sorts of things, and it would make sense to consolidate all these into one space.

Thanks to Rich Carroll and John Emde for the motor band and their advice - it seems to be a good product and I look forward to many hours of motor-cooled EV driving with the Lithium.

More to follow -

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2010, 06:44:32 AM »
Another problem sprang up - on my way to the train station to work on Thursday am, the buzzer went off - the one to warn about a low battery - man is that sucker loud!  So I was close to home, I gingerly went back home and disconnected the main pack and 12V battery and my wife drove me to the train station.  After work that night, I checked all the batteries, even under load (with the heater on), and all were within 0.01V of each other, and all on, and all checked out ok (you gotta love the Lithium!)

The culprit was the BMS - the 'loop' was  disconnected at the last battery when I was installing the blower accidentally.  Re-connection was a cinch, I tightened the female spade connector, and all was well.  So, I chared up the car and she was ready for more fun and games.

Tonight my wife, a friend of the family, and myself went out to dinner in Oak Brook, via Elec Bug - no problems, smooth ride, no worries about range (about a 20 mi. ride; I also went about 10 mi. earlier today for lunch without charging).  Our friend's comment was that the car drove like a normal car.  What a relief it is to not have to worry about range!

So, I still need to continue on with my distance trials.  The last one was 1-1/2 weeks ago (before the clutch disk problem), and I'm eager to try again.  Last big run was 55 miles.  I would like to try 65 - the last 5 mi. or so close to home.  I'll let everyone know how it goes, and at some point I'll post pictures.

Happy EV trails!

todd.dore

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Re: Todd Dore's LiFePO4 batteries
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2010, 12:40:58 AM »
And now, for a new update -

Yesterday, I drove 69 miles in the Elec Bug.  About 1/3 highway, over 2 separate trips.  The batteries were fine at the end of the trip, and they were all about 3.25V - within about 0.02 V of each other.  How's that for consistency!

The best news is enery use - just over 20kWh back into the pack.  So, that works out to 293wH/mi.!  The best ever.

Again, I don't have an SOC yet, but with the pack at a theoretical 25kWh, that means I may be able to get 80 miles or so on a charge.  Sounds good to me!

LiFePo rocks!!!