Lion EV Update

[todd.martin]

Here is a new post from the EVDL regarding Lion EV.

1/15/2008

My experiences with LionEV (http://lionev.com).

Back in about October 2007 (I'll probably go back later and get closer
on dates), I found the LionEV website that was offering a Hyundai
Accent EV conversion for about $30K.  My "due diligence" consisted of
asking around on maillists, calling the contracting converter
(AmpMobile), and calling the dealer in Ft Mill SC from which the Accent
was to be purchased.  AmpMobile said: "Yes, we are doing conversions for
LionEV".  The dealer said: "Yes, we are selling Accents to LionEV".
Eventually, I found that I should have googled on "ken curry fraud".

So, I decided to buy one.  LionEV put me through a bunch of rigamarole
getting a car selected.  The deal was to go thusly:
1) I pay 1/2 up front
2) I receive title in my name
3) I pay the other 1/2 before conversion begins
4) Converted EV is delivered to me in Texas from South Carolina

Here is how it went:
1) I paid 1/2 up front, something over $15K
2) I wait something like two months for my title to arrive
3) I get a Cc: of an email from AmpMobile to LionEV informing LionEV of
the termination of their relationship.
4) I ask LionEV about my title
5) I receive a South Carolina title for my Accent with LionEV as the
owner and a bill of sale indicating that the sale price of the Accent
was the amount that I had paid for 1/2 of an EV ($15K+)
6) I take the title down to my Texas titling place and am informed that
Texas sales tax will be due if I apply for a Texas title.  That would
be about $900 for the $15K+ "selling" price.
7) I learn that the title is not negotiable for several reasons.
Since then, there have been several communications between me and
LionEV with LionEV generally taking about a month to respond to a
query.  LionEV has been uncooperative in providing me a clear title.

Here are few details that have been gradually revealed to me:
1) The amount paid to the dealer for the Accent was about $13K.
2) At the time the Accent was purchased, Accents were being advertised
by dealers in Austin Texas for about $8K.
3) The Ft Mill dealer sold only one Accent on the LionEV deal.  Mine.
4) AmpMobile has not converted an Accent.

As it sits now, I have a car that is worth perhaps $6K, if it had a
title.  LionEV has over $15K of my money.

I have seen no evidence, or even an external indication, that LionEV
has ever delivered an EV conversion.  I doubt that LionEV has ever
delivered an EV conversion.  I suspect that LionEV has been "stringing
me along" (keeping alive my hope to get a clear title) so that I will
not make public the situation outlined above.

W. McKemie, Dale, Texas
mckemie@spamcop.net

[todd.martin]

Here is Lion's reply to their customer's complaint.

Message: 20
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:10:33 -0800 (PST)
From: S Collins <swc001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <100910.23114.qm@web52502.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I inquired and got this interesting response. Unless
it is a misrepresentation, it doesn't sound like Lion
EV did such a poor job. They ask at the end for the
perons name to be changed to CUSTOMER, by the way. I
also edited out some other specific data.

LionEV maybe indeed be the bad guy, but if the below
is true, I'd hate for everyone to keep the bad
impression I'm reading that they have.

Read on.

Scott


===



Our process requires half up front once we locate your
car, and provide
you with a VIN, the remainder when the vehicle arrives
for conversion.
Vehicles are shipped to us without a title, we receive
a certificate of
origin as a manufacturer of electric vehicles.  When
the conversion is
completed we order the title in the name of the owner,
or bank,
depending on whether it is an outright buy, or a
financed vehicle.
  This
customer appears to have decided to write his own
rules.

First of all, the customer "CUSTOMER" did not pay for
a
conversion.  The details follow.

The first of August, 2007 Mr. CUSTOMER ordered an ice
blue accent
conversion.  We had one in fleet inventory so we
provided him with the
VIN <VIN>.  Mr. CUSTOMER mailed a check for $15,560.22
which
was received on August 14th.  This was the 1/2 down to
secure the
vehicle. 

On August 18 the vehicle arrived for conversion, but
Mr. CUSTOMER chose
to have us (as he put it), "hold for conversion".  He
did not complete
the transaction.  Instead Mr. CUSTOMER requested that
we title the
vehicle "as is" in his name.

Without a conversion having taken place, we could not
issue a new
title.
The only two options were sign over a title, or try
to create a
replacement title for Mr. CUSTOMER.  Since Mr.
CUSTOMER wanted to
re-title
it in Texas, the SC title was signed over to him as
the new owner.  SC
title number XXX .  Owner registrant LionEV, buyer
CUSTOMER.

Mr. CUSTOMER assuming that the Texas Department of
Motor Vehicles, like
all other states, was staffed by kind and reasonable
people, presented
the title for replacement.  The Texas DMV told him he
would have to pay
taxes on the vehicle.  They suspected that he was
trying to evade sales
tax on the vehicle.  He of course did not pay the tax,
so he left
without a title.

CUSTOMER then contacted us and asked for help in doing
things his way
with the Texas DMV.  He requested and received many
forms.

On September 12, 2007 we sent a SCDMV form for title
transfer.

On September 12, 2007 we sent a Request for title
transfer directed at
the Texas DMV on his behalf.

On November 21, 2007 we provided a bill of sale
affidavit.

On November 26, 2007 we sent a satisfaction of lien.

On November 27, 2007 we produced proof of tax payment
forms.

During the month of December numerous emails were sent
back and forth
providing what documents were requested, but no
forward movement was
made.

January 11, 2008 and the situation with the Texas DMV
still had not
been
resolved, and it did not look like it ever would be.
A meeting was
held
at LionEV to determine what course of action would be
appropriate to
help the customer.  It was decided that the best way
to put it to rest
would be to offer a fully converted vehicle to replace
the Accent since
we could then use our certificate of origin to issue a
new title.  You
can't win with the DMV by trying to play by your own
rules.  Our
current
vehicles are Ranger trucks, Escape EV's, and Escape
PHEV's.  Our Texas
dealer had requested an Escape PHEV to demo so even
though this would
cost LionEV $13,000 it was decided to offer to replace
the Accent with
an Escape PHEV at no additional cost.  This would put
one of the PHEV's
in Texas.  The customer declined and said that he
didn't want an ICE.

The management of LionEV is currently meeting to
discuss a delivery
date
for a Ranger for CUSTOMER.  There are two scheduled to
ship in to
Texas this week, so they are trying to see what they
can do to get his
on that same truck.  Once those details are known he
will be contacted
with that offer.

This is not a case of lack of attention, this is a
case of the State of
Texas thinking a citizen is trying to defraud them of
tax revenues.
Since no conversion took place this raised red flags.
Had the
conversion been done there would have been no
questions.

Please publish the details of this transaction where
appropriate.  I am
sure that the customer's name was probably published
on the EV board
you
mention, but my office has asked that you replace
CUSTOMER's name
with the word "customer".  LionEV is very protective
of their
customer's
privacy, even when there is a rare issue.

Inventory@LionEV.com

[ted.lowe]

Egads... Ted2, are you still going to buy an LionEV  Danger Will Robinson!

[ted.sanders]

I have given up on LionEV.  It is a long story but I have sent three mails to the Illinois Rep and have received no replys.  LionEv is taking a real beating on the EVDL list.

Ted 2

[eddie.roman]

The one thing I found suspicious was the lack of information on the LionEV site.  No details on the motor, batteries, battery life expectancy, controller, etc.  Doesnt mean they are fradulent, but made me less than enthusiastic about their product.  Rather wait to hear what others experience before jumping in...

[todd.martin]

Message: 23
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:37:02 -0500
From: Peter Eckhoff <peckhoff@nc.rr.com>
Subject: [EVDL] LionEV - response from Amp Mobile
To: "ev@listproc.sjsu.edu" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <478FE69E.80109@nc.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hello All,

I've been asked by the people at Amp Mobile Conversions to post this
message from them:

Greetings Peter, from Lake Wylie, South Carolina, USA.

We had hoped we would not have to get involved in discussions
about LionEV, but due to the fact that irreparable harm could be done to
the EV industry by certain individuals, we feel it our responsibility to
respond.

- There is no licensing structure for electric vehicle converters or
manufacturers. Certificates of origin can only be issued to _certified
auto dealers_ who have _dealer licenses_. The reason the conversion was
not attempted on said customer's Accent was that components and
batteries were not ready to be used (- batteries had not passed testing
at that time). The conversion also could not be completed for price
quoted using LiFePO4 batteries. Customer was told that he would get a
title showing to him as first purchaser. That was not the case due to
the fact that all paperwork from the car dealer (this car was actually
purchased at the local dealership - NOT pulled from any fleet ON HAND as
was implied). All paper work from said dealer would have to had to been
sent to the customer in Texas showing price paid for car (which was
against LionEVs wishes). The SC title and bill of sale for the
said Accent car was sent to the customer in Texas with the title not
signed in the proper location. According to customer, LionEV has been
uncooperative in resolving the problem and has contacted us asking for
help in resolving the issue. We still have possession of the said car
waiting for the issue to resolved before any conversion can be done, by
Ampmobile Conversions or /ANYONE else. /
//
/- /We worked with LionEV for quite a while before having major
differences of opinion on statements posted on their website, statements
that we did not agree with. Due to further information we received we
decided to dissolve our working relationship with LionEV. That being
said, we personally like the people at LionEV, and we certainly hope
that they will deliver what they say they /can/ deliver. It is our
personal belief that the products suggested from LionEV will not
be delivered as stated, and again this is just our personal belief. We
also feel that our established name as Ampmobile Conversions was used to
lend credence to LionEV.

-We would like to know why the name of the dealer in Texas is NOT
available and will not be given out. Nor will any other dealer names and
locations be disclosed.

-As to the pictures of the battery manufacturing plant in China;
according to the information we have received from the pictured plant,
those pictures were not authorized to be used by LionEV. They have
indicated that there is /no/ relationship with LionEV.

-We answer questions almost daily from people about LionEV and their
products. We have even met with people - foreign and domestic, that had
come to our facility expecting LionEV conversions and products available
for review and examination and test drives. These people were not told
that the products were not available and in our opinion were mislead.

-We personally feel that the information on their website is very
misleading. And due the fact that the EV industry is very fragile we do
not need *ANY* misrepresentation being published.

-In closing, we hope that everyone when discussing or purchasing EVs or
components will do their homework and acquire as much information as
possible */themselves/* before deciding to purchase anything. ASK
questions and educate yourselves with the facts and get several opinions
from /real /EV owners.

-Please note that we DO NOT mean to offend or belittle anyone with these
statements. Facts are facts and personal opinions are personal opinions.

Thank you and Plug in,
Paula and Mike Moore - The Ampmobile People

[ted.lowe]

Thanks Todd.  This email clarifies a lot of issues for sure.  Now we know why the original conversion was not done.  And that LionEV has seemed to over-promise on their website (price, availability, etc.).  Caulk another one up to "If it seems to be good to be true...."